To what degree will you support musicians who (openly, possibly or jokingly) include racist, sexist, homophobic, or bigoted messages in their music, or who privately hold such beliefs?

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I dig Bill more than a lot of people we share a love of the Sabs but this:

"a) attacking disco, or other rhythm based music, for being brainless, tuneless, cynical or whatever has nothing to do with racism and cannot possibly by seen as racism unless said attack explicitely says that "I hate nigger music because I hate niggers" or something like that."

did you ever take a sociology class and learn how institutionalized racism works, because you sound like a 15 year old libertarian kid right now

― maher shalal smash paz (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 10:10 AM (43 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

This is fucking jive crap. Who'se worse, the 15 year old libertarian or the college freshman dorm philosipher majoring in "sociology". Tough call.

― Thraft of Cleveland (Bill Magill), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 2:55 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

is how I ended up imputing Geir's Cap'n-Save-the-National-Front post to Bill, and I don't think that was an entirely unfair move on my part - Whiney attacked the Geir post, Bill attacked Whiney's response as "college freshman dorm philosopher' hoo-hah, which I gather he did because Whiney used the term "institutionalized racism," which is an actual thing-in-the-world, not a college conceit - I should own however that I have a huge bug up my ass about people dismissing valid concerns on the grounds that they're big deals to college kids - "college kids care about this & are often inelegant in the way they formulate their arguments" does not speak, in any way, to the content of an argument

five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 16:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

sorry to have copied in Geir's racist language, should have edited better

five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 16:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

Disco Demolition Night: the "supermodel" who helped with that is also the lips in the opening credits of Rocky Horror Picture Show. I, for one, thought that was an essential piece of trivia to carry around.

I don't think this is true - those lips are Patricia Quinn's

five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 16:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

Hey, what did I miss? Are we still talking about Graham Greene? Oh.

Pop is superior to all other genres (DL), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 16:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

ilxor; I've written it but as a blogpost; set to auto-publish in about 3 hours. It's quite long.

lol sickmouthy (Scik Mouthy), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 16:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

But suffice to say, Kanye's a twat.

lol sickmouthy (Scik Mouthy), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 16:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

lol sickmouthy, nice! will watch for that

ilxor you've listened to one odd future album once (ilxor), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 16:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

All I can say about Geir is, in future please bear in mind don't see clear don't see far

Tom D (Tom D.), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 16:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

xxxxxp right on underrated, and getting after you for not contributing to the "reasoned and thoughtful discussion" is laughable considering the "fuck you fuck" snipe-fest this thread quickly devolved into: you had a really good point, and I didn't mean to detract from that...

Bone Drugs N.R. Money (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 16:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

I did not call Bill Magill racist, nor did I say that "not liking disco" is racist, NOR did I say that Bill said the thing that Geir said.

What I DID say was:

1. Categorically dismissing rhythm-based or dance music as being inartful and tuneless *can be* racist. (And, not so incidentally, homophobic.)
2. Eliding #1 above as "not liking disco" is some bullshit, and ppl should be called out on it.
3. Dismissing #1 above as "college philosipher [sic] jive" is ALSO some bullshit, and ppl should be called out on *that*, too.

Anti-mist K-Lo (Phil D.), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 16:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

I dig Bill more than a lot of people we share a love of the Sabs but this:

Before the private jets...

i have a hot bagel waiting for me in my bed so ill say this: (kkvgz), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 16:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

All I can say about Geir is, in future please bear in mind don't see clear don't see far

lol well done. I doff my cap to you sir

Hyper Rescue Troop (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 16:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

xxp I was a bit eye-rolley about Bill's first post but i think the elision referred to in 2) was made by Whiney, who DID say that not liking disco made you a racist

Bone Drugs N.R. Money (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 16:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

I like inference as much as the next person but can we please keep in mind the context under which this argument started, which was a massive Geirbomb?

ancient, but very sexy (DJP), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 16:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

I know, I only wish I'd had the energy to do a Geirbot/Wasteland.jpg mashup

a SB-in' artist that been in the game for a minute (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

I will buy stuff by dead racists. It is irrational, since money encourages record label, & it's not like I am checking their will to find out whether I am funding the Nico Foundation for Nordic Purity, but it doesn't feel so much like I am lining the pocket of evil. (tbh, this is more about books than music for me - mostly like wet music, but problems with all sorts of ppl I read from Larkin through Waugh to Celine)

portrait of velleity (woof), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

am I a racist if I illegally download Chic albums?

Destroy A. Monsters (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

so...

back to the original thread question ...

Where do we draw the line where we dont buy objectionable material/or by people with objectionable extreme views?

What do we do with Wagner?

hah xps

Algerian Goalkeeper, Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

nothing objectionable with Wagner, I fucks with Wagner

historyyy (prettylikealaindelon), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

& to think i resisted 'c'mon goalkeeper not all PE teachers are racist'.

portrait of velleity (woof), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

Wagner's a weird case because if you argue "the nationalism isn't in the music" then it's clear you haven't understood the music in any way at all, but people are such narcissistic listeners now that they think what music is about is how they felt while they were listening to it - but all that said, his understanding of orchestral music is as good as his champions claim

five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah i didn't know how hardcore nazi fuck wagner was until i read that alex ross book, yikes

Bleeqwot the Chef (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

this is lengthy, but interesting, regarding Barenboim's decision to conduct Wagner in Israel - c/p from Wikipedia

Conducting Wagner in Israel

On 7 July 2001, Barenboim led the Berlin Staatskapelle in part of Richard Wagner's opera Tristan und Isolde at the Israel Festival in Jerusalem. The concert sparked controversy. Wagner's music had been unofficially taboo in Israel's concert halls (although recordings of it were widely purchased and listened to) because of revulsion with the racial anti-Semitism that Wagner had espoused in print - which presaged and quite likely influenced Hitler. Previously the Palestine Philharmonic had performed Wagner's music. Barenboim had long opposed the ban, regarding it as reflecting what he calls a "diaspora" mentality that is no longer appropriate to Israel. In a conversation with Edward Said (published in the book Parallels and Paradoxes) he says that "Wagner, the person, is absolutely appalling, despicable, and, in a way, very difficult to put together with the music he wrote, which so often has exactly the opposite kind of feelings ... noble, generous, etc." He calls Wagner's anti-Semitism obviously "monstrous", and feels it must be faced, and argues that "Wagner did not cause the Holocaust."

Barenboim originally had been scheduled to perform the first act of Die Walküre with three singers, including tenor Plácido Domingo. However, strong protests by some Holocaust survivors, as well as the Israeli government, led the festival authorities to ask for an alternative program. (The Israel Festival's Public Advisory board, which included some Holocaust survivors, had originally approved the program.) [22]

Barenboim agreed to substitute music by Robert Schumann and Igor Stravinsky for the offending piece, but expressed regret at the decision. At the end of the concert he announced that he would play Wagner as an encore and invited those who objected to hearing the music to leave, saying, "Despite what the Israel Festival believes, there are people sitting in the audience for whom Wagner does not spark Nazi associations. I respect those for whom these associations are oppressive. It will be democratic to play a Wagner encore for those who wish to hear it. I am turning to you now and asking whether I can play Wagner." [23][24][25][26] A half-hour debate ensued in Hebrew in the hall, with some audience members calling Barenboim a "fascist." In the end, according to reports in the Israeli press, about 50 attendees walked out, and about 1000 remained, applauding loudly after the performance. (According to Israeli newspaper interviews, at least one who remained in attendance was a Holocaust survivor, again undermining the simple assertion that all survivors opposed the performance of Wagner in Israel.)[citation needed]

Barenboim regarded the performance of Wagner as a political statement, and said he had decided to defy the taboo on Wagner when a news conference he held the previous week was interrupted by the ringing of a mobile phone to the tune of Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries.[27] "I thought if it can be heard on the ring of a telephone, why can't it be played in a concert hall?" he said.

In 2005, Barenboim gave the inaugural Edward Said Memorial Lecture at Columbia University, on the theme Wagner, Israel and Palestine.[28]

five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

"I thought if it can be heard on the ring of a telephone, why can't it be played in a concert hall?"

Lowering the bar a bit there.

Pop is superior to all other genres (DL), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

Think he's very wrong to say that the anti-Semitism is nothing to do with the music tho

a SB-in' artist that been in the game for a minute (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

agree heartily, but respect that his position acknowledges the presence of ideology in music

five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

well there's no message that can't be refuted thru performance, certainly

a SB-in' artist that been in the game for a minute (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

idk it's like erecting a gigantic monument of Andrew Jackson in Oklahoma...lots of ppl would think it's an asshole move and they would be right...

Destroy A. Monsters (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

Think he's very wrong to say that the anti-Semitism is nothing to do with the music tho

How is he saying the anti-Semitism has nothing to do with the music? It seems like he's saying it has EVERYTHING to do with the music and the contrast between the hateful motivator and the surprisingly tender, moving output is one of the main things that makes the music fascinating.

ancient, but very sexy (DJP), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

"I thought if it can be heard on the ring of a telephone, why can't it be played in a concert hall?" he said.

look forward to his arrangement of "Hollaback Girl" for string quartet

Bleeqwot the Chef (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

look forward to his arrangement of "Hollaback Girl" for string quartet

your lips to Satan's ears

five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

I was certain that this had already happened in one of those "String Quartet Tribute to..." CDs but, if so, I can't find it.

ancient, but very sexy (DJP), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

http://www.amazon.com/String-Quartet-Tribute-Gwen-Stefani/dp/B000BITTEE

IMO this cheats mightily by including No Doubt material

ancient, but very sexy (DJP), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

The compilation that dares to ask "what if we arranged 'Magic's in the Make Up' for strings"

five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

1. Wagner died in the early 1880s. He was not a Nazi nor a proto-Nazi. He was a monstrous asshole and anti-semite, but also a pretty fierce supporter of the international revolutionary wave that sprung from the events of 1848. The latter is very evident in his operas. The former is not.

2. Die Meistersinger has some creepy stuff that sort of lays out aspects of German culture that would later make it vulnerable to the Nazi virus. Also Die Meistersinger was performed as a Nazi rally event which, cards on table, makes me p uncomfortable listening to the piece (which ain't Wagner's fault). Parsifal is also kinda creepy because it is one big solemn post-Christian ritual piece, which is a look the Nazis would later cop for their events and regalia.

But please, aero and NV, show me where the operas and their music contain racist or fascist ideology. I am not talking about aesthetic tropes later copped by the Nazis, or references to philosophers who would later become Nazi favorites. (And don't tell me about the supposed 'parody of klezmer' in the music for Mime the dwarf, I mean listen to it, it's not there.)

3. Wagner's a weird case because if you argue "the nationalism isn't in the music" then it's clear you haven't understood the music in any way at all, but people are such narcissistic listeners now that they think what music is about is how they felt while they were listening to it

This is beneath you, aero. Those of us who consciously listen to and think about and enjoy Wagner's operas are therefore narcissists? I think it more likely that Wagner touches some particular hot button for you, which I can dig, I mean the CONCEPT of him carries evil baggage and he DID publish racist books in his lifetime, full of nauseating crap.

4. I write the above as someone who is NOT a 'the music exists in a vacuum' person. E.g. i will not listen to Varg's stuff even stolen and for free, because I do not want that guy's energy in my head and I do not want to commune with him in any way.

return, descender (Jon Lewis), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

xpost I think they were a little premature - I bet they're kicking themselves about "Rich Girl" now

VegemiteGrrl, Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

they should have done "Bathwater", it might have ended up sounding like Bartok pastiche

ancient, but very sexy (DJP), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

there's a thread out there for these things already, right

http://www.amazon.com/Strung-Out-String-Quartet-Tribute/dp/B000U711JC/ref=pd_sim_sbs_m_1

ancient, but very sexy (DJP), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

"Wagner, the person, is absolutely appalling, despicable, and, in a way, very difficult to put together with the music he wrote, which so often has exactly the opposite kind of feelings ... noble, generous, etc."

This seems odd to me: how are these difficult to put together? Aren't most despicable nationalisms based on really noble and romantic aesthetic ideas? They're just despicably selective about whom they're willing to attribute that nobility to. They have extreme notions of the glory and nobility of one thing and the contrasting filthiness and degradation of everything else. They go together and feed one another, don't they?

oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 18:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

Well yes; I think he's highlighting the cognitive dissonance of being convinced that someone with monstrous opinions can produce art capable of moving you as that points to a commonality in viewpoint that both parties would likely rather pretend didn't exist.

ancient, but very sexy (DJP), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 18:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

Guys, Barenboim actually means noble and generous on a human level, not the Nationalist version of noble and generous. THESE ARE NOT GERMAN NATIONALIST OPERAS except mebbe Die Meistersinger.

return, descender (Jon Lewis), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 18:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

I am not talking about aesthetic tropes later copped by the Nazis, or references to philosophers who would later become Nazi favorites.

it's my position that what the Nazis saw in these tropes and what Wagner meant by them are one and the same. the character of Mime is one of the most loathesome pieces of racist dramatic craft ever imo. The Nazis didn't invent their take on Wagner's heimat und volk stuff - they saw in him their ideological predecessor. Rightly in my opinion. I mean if we called his works "celebrations of German myth & character," that'd be a benign way of pointing out that he celebrates these characteristic to the specific exclusion of people whose music he declined to conduct w/o gloves on lest he be stained by the Jewishness of the music.

Here's a piece I haven't read all of that seems interesting in which Mahler divines very clever musical motifs in mime:

http://solomonsmusic.net/WagHit.htm

Book I would read if life were longer: http://www.amazon.com/Richard-Wagner-Anti-Semitic-Imagination-Contexts/dp/0803297920

five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 18:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

Guys, Barenboim actually means noble and generous on a human level, not the Nationalist version of noble and generous. THESE ARE NOT GERMAN NATIONALIST OPERAS except mebbe Die Meistersinger.

we are capable of reading comprehension and some of us have actually done Die Meistersinger

ancient, but very sexy (DJP), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 18:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

They have extreme notions of the glory and nobility of one thing and the contrasting filthiness and degradation of everything else. They go together and feed one another, don't they?

Wagner's operas do not do this. His disgusting non-fic books do.

xpost Dan that was directed more at Nabisco

return, descender (Jon Lewis), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 18:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

xxp I always kind of wondered why ppl hated mimes

Destroy A. Monsters (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 18:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

would've been funny if the Israeli conductor had deliberately given a really terrible performance of the Wagner material - Jews win by ruining the anti-semite's work lol

Hyper Rescue Troop (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 18:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

that would have really showed wagner

B1ll C4ll4h4n (symsymsym), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 18:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

I say do all of the music immaculately but always refer to the composer as "Dick Wanger"

ancient, but very sexy (DJP), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 18:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

lol

Hyper Rescue Troop (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 18:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

Dick Wrangler iirc

return, descender (Jon Lewis), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 18:28 (3 years ago) Permalink


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