Odyssey Dawn: a military operations in Libya thread.

The Corner has been schizophrenic the last few days; these events have really confused them. Andy "Let's rape Moslems with a rolled-up copy of the U.S. Constitution" McCarthy opposes this while a couple of others wonder why Obama's been such a pussy.

please alfred, the word is "pusillanimous".

does it not matter to you that waiting for congress' rubber stamp would have been too late anyway JD

so glad you think taking the time to thoroughly resolve legal arguments that have been rather unambiguously ignored for 50+ years is more important than stopping people half the world away from dying. Supreme Court's docket is totally open this year I think, let's prep some briefs! 5 years later: we have a ruling! Too bad everybody is dead in Libya by then.
xp

btw the "three female advisors" story is 'overstated':

As has been reported, the crucial decisions were made at a pair of meetings Tuesday, which an Administration official said were far from the showdowns depicted in some accounts. Power, for instance, was present at a 4:10 p.m. meeting but didn't speak, an official said; Clinton, overseas, wasn't patched in to that meeting. Obama, told a no-fly zone wouldn't be enough to stop Qadhafi, sent Donilon to draw up other political and military options in the Situation Room, the official said; Donilon brought his notes to a 9:00 p.m. principals' meeting, at which the course was set.

"Everyone started with a healthy degree of skepticism," White House spokesman Tommy Vietor said. "But everyone moved toward the final decision based on the president's urging, but also because of what was happening on the ground, with Qadhafi moving toward Bengazi and [saying] he would show no mercy."

This isn't to say that a version of the narrative isn't true: Some of the prominent women on the foreign policy team, notably -- an official said -- Rice, did push hard for intervention, and did speak in key meetings. But the notion of an internal battle fought and won, or a shift in the poles of internal politics or Obama's evolving doctrine, seems to overstate the point.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0311/Boys_against_girls_over_Libya.html

Politico, don't ever change.

haha i only bring it up here because NRO is citing it in typical classy fashion

we should poll spelling variations of the leader of libya's name

i think i've seen at least 20

xhotaphi

I heard on NPR an hour ago that Obama had "informed" Congressional leaders, which I suppose meets the requirements of the War Powers Act (which probably needs a constitutional challenge or two). I'm not crazy about what's going on constitutionally either.

― Rich Lolwry (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, March 21, 2011 10:12 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

fwiw in his "informing" of congressional leaders he did specifically cite war powers

For some historical perspective, it's worth nothing that both Gingrich and (esp) Bob Dole had Clinton's back on Bosnia and Kosovo.

Samantha Power's A Problem From Hell is worth reading.

(I know both were out of power by the time Kosovo happened, btw)

both Gingrich and (esp) Bob Dole had Clinton's back on Bosnia and Kosovo

shoulda shared a cell.

for you Biden fans: Impeach Bam

Really love the particular rightwing attack on this that is basically "nothing that a group of women support (EVEN if they are UN ambassador/Secretary of State) should be taken seriously" because looool women are dumb, right?!

that said, I don't really get what is the end game here

women! never planning ahead

shoulda shared a cell.

Fail.

love the nagging angle, like at some point obama was just like "ugh, FINE whatever..."

The Bombing Moe series:

http://dickdestiny.com/blog1/category/bombing-moe/

Or the syndic version at Globalsecurity.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/

Under the SITREP banner on the right of the page.

i'm not sure why utter filth got, uh, shot down so quickly for asking how a no-fly zone turned into an assault on gaddafi's heavy weapons.

i'm sure this is covered somewhere else itt but how did enforcement of a no fly zone become the degrading of Gadaffi's military capability?

― utterfilth (whatever), Monday, March 21, 2011 10:12 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

um that's kind of what a no-fly zone is?

― Hyper Rescue Troop (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, March 21, 2011 10:14 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

blowing up tanks and convoys has nothing to do with "establishing a no-fly zone"! tanks don't shoot down airplanes iirc

it seems gaddafi is being cagey - he hasn't even turned the radars of his anti-aircraft weapons on yet. he hasn't even tried to fly any planes. so practically speaking there's a no-fly zone at the moment but he still has a lot of his assets

gorge thank you!! i love your writing on this stuff

Well, the tactical ground attacks go off (or will go off) because the US military is faced with the reality that the "rebels" are an armed rabble incapable of waging successful war even against an inept military like Moe's.

From tv pics it looks like they have soaked up all the US myth-making about military prowess over the last eight years. They've seen or perhaps heard of all the pictures of everything getting blown up -- they saw some of it over the weekend -- and now are joyful because they think they're an ally. And these 'allies' probably think all they have to do is march to Tripoli -- a long trek -- with the US blowing to smithereens anything that gets in their way.

Which it can do. But that means waging a war more a little more like it did to overthrow the Taliban in Afghanistan. It means bombers and cruise missiles and tons of JDAMs on call, over the country, called down as the rabble advances. It kind of means they'd almost have to put special forces on the ground to help guide some of the strikes.

Now it might not turn out like that. But if the 'rebels' want to go to Tripoli, they're going to need someone around to knock out Moe's artillery and armor, all of it.

I don't think anyone believes the French or the British can do that, or that some silly token volunteers from the Arab League flying around the periphery will. So if again faced with a 'rebel' force marching into a slaughter, US assets will have to go into action.

My opinion's that they opening assault was as heavy-handed as the US military could make it precisely because someone knew this would be the situation and they were hoping to get as much as possible early. And perhaps afflict Moe's military with paralysis and a lasting fear of operation.

xpost

Thanks, btw. The kind words are appreciated.

tanks don't shoot down airplanes iirc

they can though!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1973

• demands the immediate establishment of a ceasefire and a complete end to violence and all attacks against, and abuses of, civilians;

• authorises all necessary means to protect civilians and civilian-populated areas, except for a "foreign occupation force";

thanks Tracer...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1973

* demands the immediate establishment of a ceasefire and a complete end to violence and all attacks against, and abuses of, civilians;

* authorises all necessary means to protect civilians and civilian-populated areas, except for a "foreign occupation force";

= lets fuck up some tanks

― ℳℴℯ　❤＼(◕‿◕✿ (Princess TamTam), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 2:55 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i understand the resolution allows the use of more force than comes with the imposition of a no fly zone. my question was how did all the talk of nfz (which in the beginning had cameron isolated and ridiculed iirc, with obama keeping well clear) become a diplomatic freefall into aggressive air strikes on military capabilities, command facilities etc etc? the same air strikes that the arab league and russia immediately distanced themselves from.

it looks increasingly as though another agenda is more important than merely protecting citizens. sure, gaddafi provoked action when he called and ignored his own ceasefire, but when the talk is now of a third war for america and other allied countries, i think we've moved on from enforcement of a no fly zone.

PM and military split over war aims

has her majesty's opposition ventured an opinion?

Overwhelmingly in favour, if the vote in the HofC was anything to go by. A few voted vs.

John Baron; CON (Basildon & Billericay)
Graham Allen; LAB (Nottingham North)
Ronnie Campbell; LAB (Blyth Valley)
Jeremy Corbyn; LAB (Islington North)
Barry Gardiner; LAB (Brent North)
Roger Godsiff; LAB (Birmingham Hall Green)
John McDonnell; LAB (Hayes and Harlington)
Linda Riordan; LAB (Halifax)
Dennis Skinner; LAB (Bolsover)
Mike Wood; LAB (Batley and Spen).
Caroline Lucas; GREEN (Brighton Pavilion)
Mark Durkan; SDLP (Foyle)
Margaret Ritchie; SDLP (Down South)

Perrin's right, the Western world is run by the fucking Sopranos. Fuck giving a shit, stooges.

i guess if i lived in america i would also say fuck giving a shit. libya is a long way away.

but even im getting increasingly cold feet on this.

as perrin says, everyone plays their role:

But I think our national values are closer to The Sopranos -- armed sociopaths trying to maintain their power and wealth by any means necessary. And if a former friend/ally/business partner becomes inconvenient, two in the back of his head. Bada bang. It's only business.

"former friend/ally/business partner"... yeah. reaching a bit there. which of these was gadaffi? either way plainly wasn't becoming inconvenient for the US.

gorge (aka dick destiny) quotes this from the new york times. just in case anyone was still wondering why bahrain is being treated differently:

The mainly Shiite demonstrators moved beyond Pearl Square, taking over areas leading to the financial and diplomatic districts of the capital. They closed off streets with makeshift roadblocks and shouted slogans calling for the death of the royal family.

“Twenty-five percent of Bahrain’s G.D.P. comes from banks,” Mr. Abdulmalik said as he sat in the soft Persian Gulf sunshine. “I sympathize with many of the demands of the demonstrators. But no country would allow the takeover of its financial district. The economic future of the country was at stake. What happened this week, as sad as it is, is good.”

US warplane crash-lands in Libya

Charlie Savage, valuable as ever, on a president's war powers.

"I don't mind a few hundred Tomahawk strikes, what really bothers me is that I was not consulted!"

#fragileegos

Seriously. Do you have a point, or are you just all of a sudden really concerned about Constitutional interpretation?

By the way, I love how the NY Times' top coverage of Libya these days comes with a D.C. dateline. And they're by Elizabeth Bumiller. You may remember Bumiller as the author of the White House Letter in the months and years following the invasion of Iraq. It contained memorable passages like these:

Mr. Bush, it should be noted, spent one hour at the Houston rodeo last week. There he patted some cows on the head and said, briefly, "I thought there was a lot of bull in Washington, D.C."

...

When George W. Bush campaigned for president in 2000, he brought along his feather pillow, complained about having to sleep in hotels and missed his cats. He wanted to be president, all right, but he also wanted to wake up in his own bed in the governor's mansion in Austin, Tex., and pad downstairs for the comforting ritual of fetching the newspapers and making coffee.

...

The next dust-up, also music-related, involved the president’s iPod, which was a gift from his daughters. It was reported in this column that an aide to President Bush maintained the device’s playlist. What was not reported was that the iPod came pre-programmed by his daughters as part of the gift. Among the email to this reporter generated by that story, nearly all of it positive, came a note from the office of the First Daughters that included the gift’s original playlist (Eric Clapton exclusively) and a request to let the public know that the Bush daughters “rock.”

my question was how did all the talk of nfz (which in the beginning had cameron isolated and ridiculed iirc, with obama keeping well clear) become a diplomatic freefall into aggressive air strikes on military capabilities, command facilities etc etc? the same air strikes that the arab league and russia immediately distanced themselves from

The rebels wanted the attacks on tanks, etc. according to the stories I read and heard. Russia, like China, never wanted anything. They're happy doing doing business with Quadaffi no matter what's happening in his country.

Take the byline with a grain of salt, but here's Jack Goldsmith arguing that Obama's policy might be unnecessary but it's not unconstitutional.

By the way, I love how the NY Times' top coverage of Libya these days comes with a D.C. dateline

this is because the four writers the nyt sent to libya were captured by the libyan government and only freed yesterday, dude

two writers, two fotogs iirc

but yes that is a fairly iron-clad excuse.

yeah sorry should have said 4 journalists

i really just wanted to pour scorn on elizabeth bumiller

"let's see, our four people in libya have been taken hostage, who should take the lead in our reporting? i know, the lady who spent three years living inside george w. bush's asshole"

i kind of regret invoking that image

worst lynch parody

i have to remember that one the next time i'm late for work. "where have you been??" "sorry, running a little late, got taken hostage in libya" "it's ok we gave your job to brett, our ceo's scheduling assistant"

Every minute this goes on, it just seems worse and worse. The biggest difference between now and last week is that now we own a piece of this mess, and will no doubt get stuck with its bloody legacy and pricey clean-up. Seriously, after the last decade of military boondoggles, how could we so blithely enter into yet another pointless and pricey middle eastern military campaign? It boggles the mind.