Odyssey Dawn: a military operations in Libya thread.

out of all the barking mad dictators still in control i figured gaddafi would be the last one standing

He kind of is, though, isn't he? Is there any world leader who has been around as long as him? It blows my mind that when he first became leader, the Beatles hadn't broken up yet.

Kinda amazing story (edited from Libya 17 Feb blog:

15 March:

20:03 BREAKING – Almanara Media confirms the following: Shooting and explosions have happened in Baab Al Aziziyah (a military barracks/compound with the Gaddafi family compund in Tripoli). A big fire has erupted inside Baab Al Aziziyah

16 March:

00:33 @ShababLibya tweet: The Pilot who flew his jet into Bab Azizia was the martyr Muhammad Mokhtar Osman from Benghazi. May God have mercy on your soul dear brother, your sacrifice has not gone in vain and we will continue with this till our country is free.

01:14 Almanara Media reports that two people of “importance” have been badly injured as a result of the fighter jet crash into Baab Al Aziziyah earlier and have been taken to Tripoli’s Burns and Reconstruction hospital.

23:16 Update: A trusted source has confirmed to us this story: The pilot who flew his plane into Baab Al Aziziyah took off as part of a 2 plane team with the mission of bombing strategic points in Al Guradibya base in Sirte. Their orders were to return immedietly after completing the mission. One pilot followed orders while the other flew to Tripoli where he emptied what he had left of ammunition on Baab Al Aziziyah and then crashed his plane into it.

21 March:

2:13 Almanara Media is confirming from trusted sources that Khamis Al Gaddafi has passed away on Sunday due to severe burn injuries he sustained a few days ago. The burns were caused when a fighter jet pilot performed a martyr mission and crashed his fighter jet into Gaddafi’s compound Baab Al Aziziyah.

The brigade commanded by Khamis Al Gaddafi was the spearpoint for pro-Gaddafi forces in the East, retaking Azzawiya and Zwara, and presently investing Musurata.

whoa

Er, that should be in the West rather than East.

3/16 Never Forget?

This is why you're give leftism a bad name, btw. An inability to assess situations on their own merits, rather than through a rigid ideology.

I am terribly ambivalent about US military interventionism in all its forms (including Libya) - but responses such as this are just as useless as kneejerk western nationalism, and despite your claims otherwise, do amount to support for scum like Qaddafi because he is the opposition you support. I'll take my leftism in the "the only good fascist is a dead fascist" vein, thanks.

I've assessed plenty of situations on their own merits, and I'm increasingly finding the need for a different paradigm of good actions vs bad actions. Good actions are no longer actions which militaristically depose unwanted state organs, even if the deposition is efficient and permanent. The very presence of an all-powerful interventionist military is in itself a bad action, because it perpetuates the elitist slide of resources, power and influence towards the few. Are they bombing Libya for the people? Organized campaigns of state bombing are never for the people. If the USA or the UK had an iota of compassion towards the people oppressed by Gaddafi, they'd have already used their vast wealth to organize free food, shelter and education for every Libyan. But they can't even do that for their own people, so why say it any other way than with bombs? Sure, the bombs may oust Gaddafi and sure, the people may get a more generous individual in charge. There will still be massive poverty problems and sentiments of hatred stirred by the military climate installed not only by Gaddafi but by the countries teaching Libya that international diplomacy is not a matter of engaging on a human level and helping the people, but a matter of killing humans and destroying buildings. So while of course there are nuances to this intervention and while the intentions might not be entirely greedy, the medium of the message is completely fucked. If you're so blind to it that you can't see any other way of conducting an improvement in Libya, then your version of leftism isn't the one I see growing and growing in every nation on this planet. You're stuck in a militaristic 20th century leftist paradigm; you need to realize that the different left factions need to pull together not as a movement but as a holistic way of life, supporting each other away from a crippling debt-based financial system which makes money for money's sake. It may be a cliche but we really need to concentrate on imagining the world without borders, and any military action taken upon any part of the world as a dagger to our own breast. A situation where I really do feel ambiguities, for instance, is a state-organized profit-making charitable aid initiative, for instance, or a crackdown upon religious extremism (which only ever comes from there being a corresponding extremism elsewhere). I need to read more about Buddhism and energy and stuff which a hard-nosed militaristic Western corporate capitalist paradigm doesn't think exists along with happiness, meaning or equality, but these are my current thoughts about the notion that the role of certain countries is to dominate over others with the force of arms. We need to get away from short-termist, goal-oriented analyses of success and realize that the bad action here is playing Gaddafi at his own adversarial game. I don't support his actions at all, btw; I support his individual humanity and deplore how he has abused it by seeking despotic power. But he is not the only oppressive element at play here. He's just oppressing a people who have to represent themselves in the world media. Youtube is a wonderful thing. The only good fascist, of course, is one who has discovered that their principles are not making them or their community happy or fulfilled; the abandonment of such principles will require a revolution of the mind, but killing people for their beliefs? You're the fascist. As I said before, to oppose rather than to show compassion is to mirror.

And these cheap attempts are what make you a terrible person. You're essentially a hypocrite when it comes to attacking the US vs. other states. Every American posting to ILX opposes what the far right is doing to our state.

I said that partially to explain why you might be so gung-ho at the moment (hell if I lived in either of those two states I'd be on the streets every day) and also to show you that Gaddafi is not the only person inflicting unspeakable things on his people; in fact, those bombing him are doing similar. Do you think a quarter of Libya's black male population are in jail? Does illegalization of drugs make any moral sense whatsoever or is it a clumsy means of population control? I make these points because while ILX's Americans rightfully despair at much of the shit occurring in their country, they don't all get so worked up when America takes it overseas and exercises its responsibility. The UK and in fact every developed country is perpetuating horrible, horrible things upon the world (ever read the UK politics thread?). America is just where most of the big corporations and the debt happen to be, so it's got a lot of my attention. I don't think that's unfair. In order to make the world an equal place, America has a lot to front up to, and a lot to give. Nothing personal against you as a citizen of the world but you rather jumped on Washington's dick there for a second.

make these points because while ILX's Americans rightfully despair at much of the shit occurring in their country, they don't all get so worked up when America takes it overseas and exercises its responsibility.

what????

louis you are now officially talking out of your ass with this

I must have imagined all those demonstrations I was at.

"the protest i was at yesterday did not exist"

should have put 'responsibility' in scare quotes, or not because scare quotes are rubbish

what I'm saying is that it's easy to complain about the latest hot domestic issue of the day, but harder to complain about ongoing evils perpetuated by the state organ of the country in which one lives, especially when they exist in a hazy, shady routine of just-so acceptance

sleeve, I'm saying that there is some opposition, but it's on a case-by-case basis, and a lot of stuff is overlooked! plus, clearly some people do regularly oppose Western interventionism

what I'm saying is that it's easy to complain about the latest hot domestic issue of the day, but harder to complain about ongoing evils perpetuated by the state organ of the country in which one lives, especially when they exist in a hazy, shady routine of just-so acceptance

the thing is, the stereotype of the American left is that the opposite is true. Like back in the 90s, we joked about how everyone wanted to Free Tibet, but nobody really gave a shit about the fucked up domestic situation.

louis you are now officially talking out of your ass with this

― HOOStory is back. Fasten your steenbelts. (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, March 21, 2011 1:52 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

for context, this is coming from someone who once bombed shopping malls in his free time

granted i kind of gave up on louis' post, but the solution to the libyan problem is for the us & the uk to buy everyone a house & set up schools for them to get a good education?

Hoos bombed a shopping mall???

Why isn't he in federal prison

louis is kind of a big new age hippie huh

really not trying to be a dick, but that post is utterly insane

harder to complain about ongoing evils perpetuated by the state organ of the country in which one lives, especially when they exist in a hazy, shady routine of just-so acceptance

it is actually not harder to complain. you might be marginalized by doing so in the media, because that's the nature of the discourse in this country, but it's just as easy to speak out, and among vast swathes of the american populace in different kinds of language it happens often

that seems to be the core of your beef with the american left such as it is, and it's flat out wrong.

i guess insane is the wrong word, but something like that

lj it's more like the opposition is just straight up ignored but we do it anyway because what the hell else can you do except die or go to jail.

seriously dude I am probably fairly close to you in terms of analysis but you are still looking around for institutions to point fingers at, when imo the real problem (to paraphrase Octavia Butler) is that we as a species have been cursed with both intelligence and hardwired hierarchical behavior.

anyway, props to the suicide fighter pilot.

but we're not talking about libya. let's talk about libya.

can we not use the phrase "state organ" cuz i want to stop thinking about the US with a dangling penis

florida imo

it has one, it's called 'florida'

xp dammit

haha NICE JOB BRINGING THE TOPIC BACK TO LIBYA HOOS

texas is this country's balls amirite

HOOS, I don't have beef with the American left; I know it exists and that it does a hell of a lot of good work! I know my Jacque Fresco from my David Korten etc etc etc and that you, sleeve and many others on ILX stand up to this shit. But there are also plenty of people who only take it halfway. Anyway, this is all distracting from my main point, which is that armed coercion is evil.

Hardwired hierarchical behavior? That's being evolved out of us as I type.

yeah get back to me on that in a decade or so

my main point, which is that armed coercion is evil.

that's succinct, at least, though I disagree.

"I make these points because while ILX's Americans rightfully despair at much of the shit occurring in their country, they don't all get so worked up when America takes it overseas and exercises its responsibility"

^^^gonna concede that this was muddled - but the rest I stand by

as ever, ILX pounces on the one muddled line and ignores the rest

youtube is p wonderful, i agree

fwiw i thought this line was pretty muddled too

If the USA or the UK had an iota of compassion towards the people oppressed by Gaddafi, they'd have already used their vast wealth to organize free food, shelter and education for every Libyan.

right, because everyone in the USA is adequately educated, housed and fed!

read the very next sentence sarahel

But they can't even do that for their own people, so why say it any other way than with bombs?

not that that, uh, clears anything up

as ever, ILX pounces on the one muddled line and ignores the rest

― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Monday, March 21, 2011 6:37 AM (36 seconds ago) Bookmark

ideas

-some people are ignoring the rest because they think it is absurd and aren't going to bother arguing with someone they see as so far off the deep end

-some people are ignoring the rest because they agree with you and are only focusing on the portion that seems to form a large part of the point you were making before you decided to dissemble it into 'military force is bad'

i have work in the morning. i'm going to bed. good night all.

anyway louis it should be obvious to you or to anyone that pays attention to world affairs that "buy everyone in the middle east a reasonable house and provide them with good schooling" and "bomb the shit out of them for no reason" is not an either/or binary -- in iraq we've failed for many, many reasons but you could probably boil it down succinctly to the fact that we've operated too far towards the latter pole

ok, let me break this down

- I made the point that America conjures institutionally oppressive and ongoing situations both domestically and overseas. These are not flashpoints so much as a status quo.

- I then made the point that while many people, not all present but many people, are up in arms about individual policies or moments of intervention, they are not so quick to rail against the system and its ongoing ills, especially when they form the fabric of capitalist logic.

- Military force is only useful for repelling other military force; it is a self-creating paradigm with dreadful human collateral and it is the world fucking itself over.

this is necessarily polarized but it's the principle, dammit

yes but the problem is that principles very rarely equal solutions

- I then made the point that while many people, not all present but many people, are up in arms about individual policies or moments of intervention, they are not so quick to rail against the system and its ongoing ills, especially when they form the fabric of capitalist logic.

lots of people I know rail against the system and its ongoing ills vis a vis the "fabric of capitalist logic" - and they often use it as an excuse to avoid dealing with difficult issues and decisions about individual policies and moments of intervention.

they are not so quick to rail against the system and its ongoing ills, especially when they form the fabric of capitalist logic.

this is also kind of 'hi, welcome to activism, nice to have you'

lol!

the fabric of capitalist logic i inhale it

does it smell fresh?

the idea that this is an easy way to a fast buck or a poll boost is idiotic

I may be idiotic but I didn't say it was an easy way. I don't think this is the reason Sarko's doing it, but he's a politician facing electoral defeats, it's not like it won't have crossed his mind.