Odyssey Dawn: a military operations in Libya thread.

no it isnt

Cool! I'm so happy it's 2003 again!

lol

you can be george galloway

we still need someone with brains

let's make lots of money

Of course, Galloway was (along with a large and varied section of society) right about Iraq...

(in the binary 'good/bad idea' sense.

He was right for the wrong reasons -- he was a Saddam quisling.

That's kind of the point - people oppose or support something for a wide variety of reasons. It's not just a handful of fellow posters who are capable of nuanced thought, or complex motives.

all im hearing from the anti crowd is wide variety of bad reasons tbf

Andrew Sullivan is screaming about We're At War, and he's technically wrong, but I'm not in the wait-and-see mode: the odds are Obama won't go to seek authorization for this as he is constitutionally bound to.

(x-post) I get that, and I have no doubt that there are loads of terrible SWP types trotting (see?) out the same nonsense. It's an interesting experience to be on the 'pro' side - I opposed and protested action in Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq. Anyway, grumpy guts, we'll see what tomorrow brings, I guess.

slim pickens riding a bomb i hope

On balance, I’m anti because
a)It westernises a region-wide revolution, making said revolution less likely to succeed in the long term
b)Americans etc yet again bombing an Arab country, how can this turn out well
c)Unless the West gets lucky with a direct hit on Gaddafi it’s going to be a protracted affair anyway - a months-long or years-long civil war is probably unavoidable, western bombs or no

ps I was in favour of the Kosovo intervention and don’t think Milosevic was a sweetheart. Kosovo was about as good as it gets for this kind of intervention, and more than a decade on the situation there is still highly unstable, held together by UN troops etc.

Also, why are we doing nothing, zilch, nada to help Bahrain protesters and yet we are prepared to bomb Libya, i.e, it is actually about Western interests

fucking hell you illiterates "objectively pro-" is a pretty well established rhetorical device read a book

Adverbs are silly.

Also, why are we doing nothing, zilch, nada to help Bahrain protesters and yet we are prepared to bomb Libya

because it's easier to justify intervention when the country has already descended into near civil war, than when the government is still in full control?

"the eggs are already broken, we're just doing a bit of whisking" vs "let's start breakin' some eggs!". as it were.

because Qaddaffi is much more easily made into a target, and easier to topple.

Er, dowd, I made pretty clear my "disgusting" characterisation was a qualified generalisation and that it obviously doesn't apply to every anti but a lot of the loudest voices (in the wider debate rather than itt) appear to be on anti-war autopilot, recycling the same criticisms from conflict to conflict. The Milosevic apologists disgust me but of course I'm not saying that's everyone.

I was pro Kosovo, anti Iraq, conflicted about Afghanistan and slow to be pro this time for pretty much exactly the reasons Zelda gives but persuaded by the Arab League request, UN consensus and increasing bloodshed.

Also, why are we doing nothing, zilch, nada to help Bahrain protesters and yet we are prepared to bomb Libya

this argument is an honoured guest and we can hardly refuse him entry after so many visits, but it always sounds to me like a maverick, mccain-esque 'let's bomb saudi arabia' warcry rather than what i guess it's meant to say, which is something like 'we're bombing libya for its oil that we already get'.

a)It westernises a region-wide revolution, making said revolution less likely to succeed in the long term

not wild about this argument: most people would rather the libyans had been able to succeed in the short term, but they didn't, and now they're asking for help. well, some of them are -- i wish we knew more about all that. i'm not crazy about western/non-western as a way of looking at anything: gadaffi's libya is pretty westernized already by being a soviet client, part of opec, etc., and the protesters/revolutionaries seem to want freedoms-that-are-called-western. i think people put too much stress on authenticity, tradition, etc. those things are very resonant fictions, no doubt, but they are fictions.

b)Americans etc yet again bombing an Arab country, how can this turn out well

again, it's not ideal. but 'dictator loosing his army upon rebellious population' can't turn out well either.

c)Unless the West gets lucky with a direct hit on Gaddafi it’s going to be a protracted affair anyway - a months-long or years-long civil war is probably unavoidable, western bombs or no

i don't know enough about the logistics. feel like his army won't want to keep going on forever even if he does.

xpost
I'm not suggesting we bomb Saudi, Bahrain, or anyone. The Saudis have basically occupied Bahrain and suppressed the revolt with only the mildest protestations from the U.S. and yet bombs are being dropped on Libya. That sits poorly with the argument that the Libyan intervention is simply a humanitarian matter.

gadaffi's libya is pretty westernized already by being a soviet client, part of opec, etc., and the protesters/revolutionaries seem to want freedoms-that-are-called-western. i think people put too much stress on authenticity, tradition, etc. those things are very resonant fictions, no doubt, but they are fictions.

If a fiction is very resonant, then it's best to pay attention to it. An uprising completely unaided by the Americans is going to be harder to argue against than one that only succeeded with American help, which historically has fatally weakened such uprisings.

hey i haven't been paying tons of attention but uh it didn't really look like the uprising was going to succeed?

the unaided uprising foundered and asked for support

we could trade historical examples on whether that means it's doomed; you might be right, i don't know, but there isn't, unfortunately, a choice between a UN-supported successful rebellion and a successful unaided one

xpost

20th anniversary

Early on April 15, 2006 – to mark the 20th anniversary of the bombing raid – a concert involving U.S. singer Lionel Richie and Spanish tenor José Carreras was held in front of Gaddafi's bombed house in Tripoli. Diplomats, businessmen and politicians were among the audience of what Libya dubbed the "concert for peace". The BBC reported Lionel Richie as telling the audience, regarding Gaddafi's supposed adopted daughter, "Hanna will be honored tonight because of the fact that you've attached peace to her name."

ready to hate Richie for using "the fact that" for no reason tbh

Libya is probably in for a long period of violence and instability with or without Western bombs. Yes, the unaided uprising asked for support, it's very, very difficult. Similar arguments were no doubt being played out 10 years ago wrt Afghanistan which, to begin with, was a bombing campaign to help the anti-Taliban forces. I don't know. On balance I'm against this intervention, but I guess it's a fine balance.

Louis, I have made terrible sexing decisions in the past indeed. But I can make better decisions in the future - you will always be a terrible person who gives leftists a bad name.

― boots get knocked from here to czechoslovakier (milo z), Sunday, 20 March 2011 20:39 (Yesterday)

can you explain this please? when it's proved wrong I hope you are there to witness it. also be mindful that you're projecting

ShababLibya LibyanYouthMovement
BREAKING: It has been confirmed by a few sources and now also Al Manara, Khamis Gaddafi has died today, as a result of burns #Libya #Feb17
1 hour ago

since when did louis become a psychologist

when people started saying really, really needless and hurtful stuff at me despite my reduced posting volume and efforts to be inclusive. it's like what is there to still hang onto? oh wait it's because I do politics wrong, or at least frame my terms with a cartoonish abandon (n.b. this won't happen when I come to write about this stuff in a more serious and scholarly register). well sorry you live in a country where two states have just imposed fascist 'emergency' sanctions which enable elected officials to be fired on a whim. please understand that a traditionally 'far-left' but overwhelmingly holistic, naturalistic and humanistic political ideology is rapidly gaining traction around the world, and that its manifestation will occur through popular consent and not violent revolution. it is not an idiocy to claim that the capitalist paradigm is showing more cracks by the year, and that the indefinite pursuit of increased revenues is unleashing a truly fucked set of values on the world's people, which they are increasingly choosing to reject.

so when the corporate powers of state unleash lots and lots of missiles, I have to set myself firmly against the action, because it is another regrettable example of intimidation and thus mediation of superiority. no set of humans are superior; we must work together, not have some of us dandle entire countries as playthings in order to leverage positive influence among an area which we've fucked up morally and physically almost beyond repair

friendly, slightly assholish reminder: if you don't engage with that and continue to insist that I'm a terrible person who will 'give leftists a bad name' all of my life (a bad name among whom?) then you really will be projecting. if you engage with it and still insist that I'm a terrible person, c'est la vie, we haven't synchronized our perspectives yet. it'll come.

Louis, I agree you've shown a lot more posting restraint the last couple of months, and I regret sniping at you. My apologies. I'll never be able to relate to your hyperbolic style, but it's my job to get over it, not yours.

Thanks, dude. There are some topics where I'm more liable to play the fool and ramp up the manic pixie quotient - completely baffling airstrikes by NATO are pretty high on that list

also can I gently suggest getting a good night's sleep will help this whole conversation, LJ...

i feel like generally speaking if being tired or drunk turns you into a raging asshole, you prob should know this & not post under such circumstances

anyway, this seems level headed and considered http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2011/03/at_the_end_of_last.php

feel like that article outlines a lot of the reasons why this is bad but god damn do i hate the alternative.

yeah I'm with that. On principles I think this is terrible and am against it, in the real world equation it's more of a tossup. Too early to begin following the money but I really can't figure out what US/EU interests are here beyond saving a little humanitarian face - unless they're rolling the dice to try and get a more amenable spigot-warden as Tracer said on the other thread.

this is all really pretty bizarre, out of all the barking mad dictators still in control i figured gaddafi would be the last one standing and the only one w/a grudging level of acceptance by the UN.

FASCISM is comin' back!

careful soto, round here we save humanitarian face with airstrikes!

life's a bitch

dont know why so many of you have opinions about this, seems a lot easier to sit back and form an opinion later after its clear whos right

The ironic thing is that Qaddafi is the ultimate "wrong," and yet he appears to be in the strongest position (from a maniacal despot standpoint, but still - he and Mugabe can hi-five).

Amazing how waiting/dithering/delaying/postponing the no-fly zone a mere week may have made all the difference between this being a good idea and a bad idea. History hurtling forward.

so when the corporate powers of state unleash lots and lots of missiles, I have to set myself firmly against the action, because it is another regrettable example of intimidation

I am terribly ambivalent about US military interventionism in all its forms (including Libya) - but responses such as this are just as useless as kneejerk western nationalism, and despite your claims otherwise, do amount to support for scum like Qaddafi because he is the opposition you support. I'll take my leftism in the "the only good fascist is a dead fascist" vein, thanks.

well sorry you live in a country where two states have just imposed fascist 'emergency' sanctions which enable elected officials to be fired on a whim.

shoulda been called delta dawn because awesome theme song already exists