Rolling Teenpop 2007 Thread

My hero story for Ashlee has her writing continually self-analytic, probing, and restless lyrics for continually catchy songs, and dressing really well and really outrageously, and slowly gathering a new audience on her own terms; but in reality I have no clue where she goes next or what models she follows. There don't seem to be any. Dance and r&b aren't really her thing, and these days Singer-Songwriter, Pop Star, and Punkette all seem dumber and duller than she is.

I imagine as these (tablodish) things pile up higher and higher, it becomes harder for a Spears to emancipate herself from the role she's been thrust into. Ashlee can still reinvent herself.

But as far as almost all of this goes...I just don't see any of this happening at all. I do think Lindsay has more options and freedom (in her film career only), and that Ashlee is out in the cold. My main point is that her Disney/kid audience is crucial right now, and the recent tabloid stuff effectively kills her shot at "coming back" on Disney's terms (and, also importantly, that this didn't hurt Britney at all. But she certainly wasn't allowed back in the building -- "Toxic" could have been but wasn't shopped to the RD audience; this is the same company that five years ago could excise "I'm not that innocent" to make Britney OK for the kids...and I don't think they'd have to edit even that in 2004).

Another point I didn't really get to elaborate on is that Britney, by being in the limelight, gets to sidestep the tricky "authentic makeover" bullshit that Xtina just (successfully) went through -- so she gets to remain herself. Not to say that expectations of "authenticity" can't ever lead to great music, but that the expectations are idiotic and Britney transcends it, and so does Lindsay. But Ashlee doesn't, and we'll just have to see what Robert Smith has to offer her.

(If Meryl Streep says she can act, is anyone going to disagree?)

Well, this person disagrees.

Anyway, the Stylus is pretty funny - if not a little obvious. But I didn't catch a criticism of her acting chops. (I also read it during American Idol commercials - so I admit, I'm a little distracted.)

Can you please respect my privacy?" I don't know, LL-- can you please insult my intelligence? I mean, really, if you're going to put it that way, why not just put a "Kick Me I Like Swirlies" sign on the back of those jammies you wore to the last Hilton soirée? Yes, there's a fine line between being noticed and being watched, and a lot of celebrity reportage is just a few slime trails above Penthouse Pet photo captions; and of course no one's nip slips or panty peeks should find their way onto the Internet, but pointing out the injustice of it all isn't going to earn you Good Samaritan kudos or bonus Best Buy Bucks.

From Pfork at the time. The fact that rumors is kind of a fun dance song takes a backseat to the idea that Lindsay is really anguished about the rumors.

With Aly & AJ, I see it going in the other direction. As time goes on, I think they will start to incorporate more humor, lightness, and fun into their music, and phase out the acting. Which is a damned shame because Aly is a really great actress.

But maybe I didn't make my point very well which is that since Aly has more depth as a musician she's probably going to drop acting and since Lindsay has more depth as an actress she'll probably drop the music. Not that they aren't both good at acting and singing.

I'm wondering if part of the problem with Kara is that she has no identity, not as a a celebrity, not as an artist, not as a person. When Ashlee sings "I was stuck inside someone else's life and always second best," we can fill in the blank with the idea of Ashlee--black-sheep little sister, desperate to be seen and heard, because we've been sold that image alongside the songs. When Kara sings "so many nights I've heard you talk in delight about the promised land," we're left with the blank, because what is Kara beyond the song? You said it right there in your Voice review--there's no story to connect to.

Now, when you find out that Kara was raised by a religious, right-wing Republican congressman, does it make "Avalanche" any better? Or at least give it the possibility of being better? I think it does. We've both brought up "Crying at the Disco" as one of the better songs--is it maybe because it's so clearly tied to who Kara is? Maybe what Kara needs is not someone to turn her words and sounds into her words and sounds, but just a her to begin with.

Of course, at a certain point the music needs to speak for itself, and I do think Ashlee's music is more successful in establishing an actual identity--the story of that girl. But I don't think I would understand just how deeply Ashlee is (or wants to be seen as) that girl from the music alone. And then again, Ashlee is the focus of Ashlee's music, whereas Kara is ostensibly not the focus of PW's, so I'm not sure how much we can/should ask for PW's music to have a coherent personal identity.

Anyway, back to replying to your actual post: I don't know if I'd say Ashlee's a better singer. More distinctive, yes, and more contained (in a good way). Same goes for Lindsay and, to a lesser extent, Kelly Clarkson. But there are times when Ashlee sounds like she's struggling to sing bigger (the end of "Say Goodbye"), to the detriment of the song, and I don't think any of Kara's proteges are capable of, say, the eye-rolling sarcasm of "Is it finally gettin' to ya? Hallelujah!"

I do understand the disappointment with the PW album. I love "La La" about as much as you love Autobiography, and there is no "La La" on this album. But I do think it accomplishes more than you give it credit for, and I'd love to change your mind.

"Take seriously" and "earnest" are becoming bizarre, shifting code words on this thread, and I'm not following. I take Lindsay's singing (and what I've seen of her acting) seriously. And I think she's a lot of fun. I take fun seriously.

Lindsay brings lots of humor and enthusiasm to her singing, when she wants to. Talked about this last year here (scroll down to the third entry) and here and here, and talked about her acting here.

Comic acting is just as rich as dramatic acting; in fact, I doubt that there's much difference, since in good comedies the actors are playing it straight - the characters don't know that they're being funny - and allowing the situations to provide the humor. And in Herbie: Fully Loaded, the scenes between Lindsay Lohan and Michael Keaton (playing her dad) are played absolutely seriously, somberly, even, and they have to be or else there's no way to care about the rest of the movie (both she and her dad are undercutting her calling as a stock-car driver, and you have to believe in their reasons and their uncertainty or else there's nothing emotional at stake, and therefore no exhilaration or release provided when the film gets funny).

Saw one episode of "Phil Of The Future," Aly Michalka was on for maybe two minutes total, and she was absolutely incandescent.

When I first saw Freaky Friday, I knew basically nothing about Lohan. Half way through the movie, I was sold--this girl was often wiping the floor with Jamie Lee Curtis, whose no slouch, and doing a better Jamie Lee than Jamie Lee did a Lohan.

Her pratfalls in Mean Girls were brilliant--her delivery of the voice-overs uniquely droll.

The only problem with her in A Prairie Home Companion was that every single person aroud her was at least 30 years older--how could she not seem out of place? And even then, she fully ehld her own against the vets---I got this real sense of her existing within this very well-thought-out chracter space of her own, no small feat considering, again, the competition.

in Bobby--a dire film in every other way--she was the sole element of stillness, of, again, being in that space, that person's skin.

I completely agree with Frank with the Foster/Silence thing. If she gets her shit together, I see no reason for her not to emerge from the teen thing just as Jamie Lee emerged from the slasher queen thing as a highly credible actor.

On that note: I love Lohan's acting. And Frank, I think words like "sincere" or "earnest" or "authentic," when taken with acting, are absolutely absurd. They condescend to the actress (whether it's Lohan or Ali), assuming that her persona is far less fluid than a "real" "talented" actress. Which relates to Lohan's music career too. If an established actor/actress released a poor album (or a poorly received album), we'd feel comfortable saying that they made a misstep - or that the album is far weaker than their acting. But if Lohan is really an overarching persona, and not an actress, than we can't separate the music from the acting.

On that note: I found Lohan's singing unremarkable and unnecessary. I also found her acting excellent, and enjoyed watching every movie she's appeared in that I've had the opportunity to watch. And I don't feel one feeling necessarily has anything to do with the other.

Now I'm gonna go lie down in the bathroom and moan pitifully. This again has little to do with my enjoyment of Lohan's performances - except in the extant that I may even now be delusional. But that's a bad road to go down.

I take Lindsay's music seriously too (whatever we want to mean by "take seriously"), I just get the distinct impression that she doesn't seem to care about it too much one way or the other. And unless she shows that she genuinely wants it and she's willing to work her butt off for it, it'll never succeed. That's how JLo successfully made the switch.

For what it's worth, what I was trying to say before (even though what actually I wrote made no sense -- hopefully the change clarifies it) was that very few people do either of these things with Lindsay. They don't take Lindsay's singing or acting seriously (like in the review I linked; it's not so much that Lindsay's a bad actress, but that she doesn't deserve to be considered as an actress at all!) but they also take her, Lindsay the celebrity, VERY seriously, arms crossed, and they don't assume that she's funny or smart or self-aware enough not to be completely literal in, say, "Rumors." Or a magazine interview. "Confessions" is different, but it also isn't a representative example of her music and still needs to be understood in the context of her other work (and, like Lex said, the fact that the tabloid stuff was part of that context in this case can complicate reception of it, too).

haha, i know what you're saying, but this is ironic because lindsay's vocal srategy is heavily earnest, even when she's being funny - on the second album it's heavily cathartic and, as she tells us, RAW. (more playful on the first album.) whereas j-lo's vocals are the epitome of botherd-about-this can-we-hurry-up-my-car-is-waiting detachment. (both are v good at what they do.)

they also take her, Lindsay the celebrity, VERY seriously

people have odd attitudes towards celebrity - it seems to be treated in common parlance as some sort of prize, which one has to prove oneself for, by either obvious hard graft or obvious talent, and people like lindsay lohan, paris hilton, and jade goody (recently-disgraced-due-to-vile-bullying-and-racism uk reality tv star) are castigated by somehow being celebrities while sailing merrily and uncaringly through a series of parties and public appearances.

("singing teenpop songs" never seems to equate to "obvious talent" unless the singer has xtina-level pipes; lohan's acting DOES but she doesn't do enough of it) (i cannot believe i have yet to see mean girls)

And, for me, LL has only had three and a half good roles. (Granted, I haven't seen A Prairie Home Companion yet.)

Just My Luck was awful--the screenplay was the culprit. But even then, Lohan totally, almos recklessly, invested herself in it.

It was rather charming when she went on jay Leno and did everything she could do NOT to talk about it--her whole vibe screamed 'contractual obligation' and 'God, thos ine sucked'.

country

country w/ recurrents

mainstream top 40

mainstream top 40 w/ recurrents

Christian AC

Christian AC w/ recurrents

mainstream urban

mainstream urban w/ recurrents

alternative

alternative w/ recurrents

AC overall

AC overall w/ recurrents

CHR/pop (These are now labeled "Top 40" and are basically the same as the "mainstream top 40 lists," which are also labeled "Top 40" but have slightly different totals)

CHR/pop w/ recurrents(ditto)

CHR Rhythmic

CHR Rhythmic w/ recurrents

active rock

active rock w/ recurrents

Limitations of these numbers: Obviously, they only take into account stations that report to Mediabase, and the rankings are based on total plays without regard to the size of the listenership or what time of day a song is played (though info on that is included in the chart).

The basic Mediabase URL is http://w2.mediabase.com/mmrweb/AllAccess.

For KDIS in Los Angeles, click on "7-Day Reports," click on "Station Playlists," tick "Station" rather than "Market," then type in "KDIS" and hit "Go," then click on "7-Day Playlist" on the right. Radio Disney has 51 affiliates, I think, so multiply each song's number by 51 to get national plays.

If you want to know whois playing a song, find it on some list and then click on the song. For instance, if you go to the "mainstream top 40" list you see that Avril Lavigne's "Keep Holding On" is 25th with 2,134 plays. If you click on "Keep Holding On," you get a list of the 50 stations in the genre ("mainstream top 40") that are playing it the most. She's doing pretty well in Salt Lake City, Raleigh, and Wilkes-Barre. (If you want to see who's playing her in different formats, choose another format.)

"Celebrity" being a modern-day analogue to what "juvenile delinquent" was in the the '50s, perhaps? (E.g., mainstream culture didn't take rock 'n' roll seriously as music but did take it seriously as a potential cause of vandalism and crime. And now pop - with the aid of reality TV - is a potential cause of celebrity.)

Forget where it was (Poptimists?) but there was a discussion about artists coding male/female, and about the new crop of emo rock stars trying to have it both ways (or something)...anyway, I think the idea was floated, or at least I took from it, that Lindsay Lohan and Paris Hilton were the only two unapologetic rock stars to make any kind of impact in 2006 (Lindsay maybe tail-end of '05?), with Britney on the back-burner since it's been a while since she recorded anything.

*Me.

Paris and Lindsay are too apologetic. Rock stars don't play dumb and then insist they're smart, or confess to eating disorders and then take it all back. Britney comes closest to the kind of iconic, defiant rock stardom you're talking about, Dave, in that she seems to really not give a shit.

Not that I really value the rock star archetype. I'm just saying. I'm also saying that I have erred by helping to prolong a discussion that is way past its sell-by date.

Who are these "people" who don't want to Lindsay do that thing? Somebody bought her album. I'd also argue that plenty of people don't want to hear Mick Jagger, either--is that relevant to whether or not he's a rock icon?

Britney's apology was not really an apology. "Ha ha, sorry I didn't wear panties, y'all! But seriously, I'm just gonna go fuckin' crazy for a while. Laterz."

2. What was more popular, dance-pop Lohan or emo Lohan, is my point.

3. Check the record, yo. Just neglecting your children doesn't make you Courtney Love.

2. So if she's not popular when acting rock-y, she's not actually acting rock-y? Also, if you close your eyes, people can't see you. It's true!

3. Yeah, but neglecting your kids and getting lots of plastic surgery does. Dropping a baby is TOTALLY rock-n-roll, dude!