Joy Division vs. New Order

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Easy! Joy Division.

Pfunkboy Formerly Known As... (Herman G. Neuname), Monday, 8 December 2008 19:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

Revenge oh wait.

Ned Raggett, Monday, 8 December 2008 19:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

joy division. if new order would have continued in the vein of movement it could have been a different story though...

alex in mainhattan, Monday, 8 December 2008 19:49 (6 years ago) Permalink

i really, really like joy division but they're gonna lose this one. they're possibly underrated to some degree by me thanks to new order, since new order is one of the 3 best pop bands of the uk over the past 25 years (psb and st et the other 2 imo). but the two bands at their peak fulfill different needs for me w/r/t their music. i just think i happen to be in a new order mood most of the time.

omar little, Monday, 8 December 2008 19:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

If we'd asked this question in 1987, JD might have swept. I get the sense that JD is almost underrated now.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 8 December 2008 19:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

maybe this is the first poll. the first scientific approach but we already had at least 1 2 3 threads on this question. i am not going to count them out. but everyone knows deep inside their hearts what the answer is...

alex in mainhattan, Monday, 8 December 2008 19:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

Actually it was this post on the other thread that helped me decide:
add Ceremony and Procession to the 81/82 FACTUS8 EP and you're left with a collection that rivals or surpasses any collection of Joy Division tunes.

― brotherlovesdub, Monday, 8 December 2008 18:57 (55 minutes ago)

Of course, Procession already is on there, but the point still stands. Can I throw on Cries & Whispers instead?

I SYMPATHIZE HAMSTER (Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You), Monday, 8 December 2008 19:57 (6 years ago) Permalink

aren't Mesh and Cries and Whispers on there? fuck, i'll have to break this out again. btw, i have 2 copies on CD if anybody wants to trade for somethign else. i've also got doubles of the promo only 20 Years of New Order compilation.

brotherlovesdub, Monday, 8 December 2008 20:03 (6 years ago) Permalink

i really can't decide. i would guess that JD will win, though.

vergangenheitsbewaeltigung (later arpeggiator), Monday, 8 December 2008 20:05 (6 years ago) Permalink

this poll is a little bit like polling the past against the future. the future is joy division. grim, bleak, crisis, end of the world, dead end, suicide etc.

alex in mainhattan, Monday, 8 December 2008 20:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

New Order "Ceremony" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joy Division "Ceremony"

(*゚ー゚)θ L(。・_・)   °~ヾ(・ε・ *) (Steve Shasta), Monday, 8 December 2008 20:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

Actually, I'm thinking New Order will win because they seem more popular in general. Seems like most folks are pretty firmly in one camp or the other, though.

I SYMPATHIZE HAMSTER (Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You), Monday, 8 December 2008 20:10 (6 years ago) Permalink

this is easy for me. if i could only listen to New Order or Joy Division, i'd choose New Order. If i had to argue for the artistic contribution of one over the other, JD would be my pick

So, hang on: which did you choose? :)

grimly fiendish, Monday, 8 December 2008 20:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

you remember that scene in The Princess Bride where the little guy and the hero discuss which goblet the poison is in?

brotherlovesdub, Monday, 8 December 2008 20:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

A bit tangential but since we're all here and I posted about this over on the band's thread, the two part Ian Crause story about Disco Inferno (part one and part two) contains a LOT on both JD and NO's influence on him -- always apparent but it's nice to read some of the details. For instance:

I became a huge fan of Joy Division. I went out and bought 'Closer' over the Easter weekend in 1988. I remember laying face down on my parents’ sofa and putting the record on. The first time it finished I thought it might be the most brilliant thing I’d ever heard, so I put it on again. The second time it finished, I was convinced it was the most brilliant thing I ever would hear. I think I still stand by that, as long as there’s a Bach caveat in there.

...I got friendly with Paul Willmott, who was one of the in crowd in the year above me. He was a 6th former so our friendship really did cross a social chasm. We were into what was then outsider sorts of music like The House of Love and New Order – it was outsider-y for a 15 year old in Ilford (Essex) in 1988, believe me – and he even took Joy Division seriously which for me is still, to some degree, the measure of a man’s soul.

And later, when recording "The Last Dance" in 1993, this wonderful anecdote about Michael Johnson:

Geoff (Travis) heard it and wanting us to make poppier singles put us in touch with Michael Johnson who had started as Joy Division’s tape op on 'Closer' and gone on to engineer and help produce everything up to and including 'Technique'. Ironically, we had to put back our first recording session due to the fact I had tickets to see New Order at Reading. It’s ironic because they had just effectively sacked him after 12 odd years by deciding to work without him but he turned out to be a lovely guy and didn’t seem offended as many in the music biz may well have been by such perfidiousness.

Having done 'DI Go Pop' and not now wanting to repeat it, I got right into the whole New Order thing (while I thought of the next big stylistic move) and finally got to rent a Gibson 335 guitar like Bernard Sumner always used and which I’d never had a chance to play. That’s the guitar on the track. I just loved it.

We recorded at studio owner and engineer John Rivers’ place in Bath. He had made most of the Two-Tone stuff, so both our guys had impressive form, as it were. The band had a fantastic time, though they didn’t see eye to eye. When it came to record the vocals, Michael set up a £99.00 Sure live mic' for me to record the vocals instead of one of an array of £2500+ studio mic's John owned – a few feet in front of the control room speakers. With no headphones. He told John to mono the mix and put it 180% out of phase. I was just to stand in front of the speakers and the mono-ed mix will phase cancel itself out of the final track (apologies for the technical stuff).

John refused point blank to do it and I was voicing reservations as I thought he felt I had a crap voice so had just decided he didn’t give a shit. Michael replied that was how they’d recorded the vocal tracks to most of the New Order albums. Argument won for me.

Ned Raggett, Monday, 8 December 2008 20:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

you remember that scene in The Princess Bride where the little guy and the hero discuss which goblet the poison is in?

Ha. No.

grimly fiendish, Monday, 8 December 2008 20:47 (6 years ago) Permalink

I read some of that earlier, Ned: thank you for reminding me to finish it!

grimly fiendish, Monday, 8 December 2008 20:48 (6 years ago) Permalink

I can't work up much enthusiasm for either band, even though they both have a few songs I really like. Maybe I will vote to delete the universe.

askance johnson, Monday, 8 December 2008 20:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'm not the biggest fan of New Order (thought they have some great singles), but Joy Division encapsulates almost everything I hate in rock music (overt gloominess and seriousness, cult of personality, needless ennui, unsexiness, etc), so it's pretty easy to vote for NO.

Tuomas, Monday, 8 December 2008 21:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

Yeh, I'm pretty sure Ian Curtis's friends and loved ones would agree that his disaffection was contrived and needless. I think that much was obvious by the way he just snapped out of it, pulled himself together and stopped feeling sorry for himself.

If, on the other hand, that's an accusation you're levelling at fans rather than the band ... aye, fair play some of the time, I guess. Even so, I think you're missing something deeper ... but I would say that, wouldn't I?

grimly fiendish, Monday, 8 December 2008 21:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

other two!

lol this is comically impossible. I am a typical ILXor in revering these two bands as the apotheosis of punk/post-punk respectively. J.D. had 0% filler in their lean, brilliant, tragically abbreviated career. N.O. had plenty of dud moments and some latter-day meh albums, but their many career highs rank as some of my very favorite music. I do not think I can vote. I probably will eventually, but it will be arbitrary.

D'Andrelo, the gay white ex-con (Pillbox), Monday, 8 December 2008 21:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

Yeh, I'm pretty sure Ian Curtis's friends and loved ones would agree that his disaffection was contrived and needless. I think that much was obvious by the way he just snapped out of it, pulled himself together and stopped feeling sorry for himself.

I'm not talking about the people behind the music, just about music itself. I'm sure Curtis had plenty of reasons to feel the way he did, but that doesn't make the music any more appealing to me.

Tuomas, Monday, 8 December 2008 22:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

New Order, easy

baaderonixx, Monday, 8 December 2008 22:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

Tuomas: OK, but I still think "cult of personality" is an odd accusation to level at, er, music ;)

grimly fiendish, Monday, 8 December 2008 23:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

(ie as opposed to at a person, or people).

grimly fiendish, Monday, 8 December 2008 23:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

I know it's been talked to death , but I did just want to prove it by science with a poll.

The All-Singing All-Dancing Unstoppable Kate (Masonic Boom), Tuesday, 9 December 2008 00:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'm going for NO but hate having to choose. JD had such a huge impact on the 16 year old Trifle but the fact that they came out of that and made another band who were incredible for such a long time gives them the edge. Also, over the years, I've had to argue that NO are the GREATEST BAND EVER so many times, I think I actually believe it now, even though the 2 JD albums + Atmosphere + LWTUA are just about as perfect a discography as you could have. Oh, damn it I'm starting talk myself out of my vote.

Holden McGroin (Ned Trifle II), Tuesday, 9 December 2008 00:41 (6 years ago) Permalink

I've just realised that you are right, New Order *are* the greatest. band. ever. This is kind of earth-shattering and paradigm-shifting for me.

The All-Singing All-Dancing Unstoppable Kate (Masonic Boom), Tuesday, 9 December 2008 00:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

...now I'm gonna go watch Barney in short shorts some more!

The All-Singing All-Dancing Unstoppable Kate (Masonic Boom), Tuesday, 9 December 2008 00:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

lol. Short shorts and white high tops.

redmond, Tuesday, 9 December 2008 11:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

New Order

negotiable, Tuesday, 9 December 2008 11:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

I have tried with Joy Div, but apart from the singles and a few ISOLATIoNNN!! ISolAtionnnn! ahem.. isolated tracks, I can't muster up the love.

NO, though.. easy.

Mark G, Tuesday, 9 December 2008 11:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

Joy Division didn't last long enough to be usefully compared with New Order - if that makes any sense

Ich Ber ein Binliner (Tom D.), Tuesday, 9 December 2008 11:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

If you discount their earliest days, Joy Division made surprisingly few missteps. Their oeuvre is small but perfect. Of their fifty odd songs, there are probably only two or three I don't much like. New Order are a bit more hit and miss, some of their stuff has dated more, some of Bernard's doggerel comes close to ruining good songs, some of their remixes aren't too good, I don't especially care for their last couple of albums. And I can't imagine Ian Curtis doing World In Motion.

Zelda Zonk, Tuesday, 9 December 2008 12:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

or "Anarchy in the UK" still, they were not kidding about their version of "Louie Louie" right?

Mark G, Tuesday, 9 December 2008 12:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

IC died young. He may have turned into an embarrasing old fart like the rest of us too.

Dr X O'Skeleton, Tuesday, 9 December 2008 13:07 (6 years ago) Permalink

I can't imagine Ian Curtis doing World In Motion.

Talk about missed opportunities!

Ca-hoot na na na oh oh (HI DERE), Tuesday, 9 December 2008 14:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

I suspect IC would have been a fun-hating negative influence on NO's continued development. Part of what makes NO great is their total willingness to make utter fools of themselves - World In Motion, playing on the Babewatch set - because their willingness to make fools of themselves results in genius just as often as it does in foolishness.

The All-Singing All-Dancing Unstoppable Kate (Masonic Boom), Tuesday, 9 December 2008 15:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

Bull props to Barney for not becoming a new "ian" even though there were many impersonators, and not writing overached poetry in response to Ian's great writing.

I know that's damning with faint praise to say the least, but they would have come unstuck trying to continue 'with the good work'...

Mark G, Tuesday, 9 December 2008 15:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

bull props? Ahem, full props, obv.

Mark G, Tuesday, 9 December 2008 15:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

Is that a rugby union term or sumptin'?

Ich Ber ein Binliner (Tom D.), Tuesday, 9 December 2008 15:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'm still boggling at the idea of Ian Curtis grumping his way through "World In Motion".

Ca-hoot na na na oh oh (HI DERE), Tuesday, 9 December 2008 15:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

haha me too

baaderonixx, Tuesday, 9 December 2008 15:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

eeeeeeeeeng-errrrrrrrrrrr-land

baaderonixx, Tuesday, 9 December 2008 15:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

Maybe he could have done the rap bit.

Zelda Zonk, Tuesday, 9 December 2008 15:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

Would Ian Curtis ever perform in boxer shorts, tall white socks and loafers?

i doubt it.

NEW ORDER!

brotherlovesdub, Tuesday, 9 December 2008 19:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

I love Barney's scratched on the back of a napkin between cups of tea lyrics.

leavethecapital, Tuesday, 9 December 2008 22:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

Which is funny because 'scratched on the back of a napkin between cups of tea' is a lyric from an unreleased song during the Brotherhood sessions.

Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 9 December 2008 22:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

(The song was of course called "A Corner.")

Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 9 December 2008 22:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

I love Barney's scratched on the back of a napkin between cups of tea lyrics.

There's Pernod in that tea, I imagine.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 9 December 2008 22:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

Anyway we can agree to disagree on Joy Division. Everything will be fine. Don't worry. We can agree to disagree.

With Oatmeal Sauce (Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You), Friday, 2 January 2009 05:28 (5 years ago) Permalink

and it helps your life
like a broken knife

With Oatmeal Sauce (Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You), Friday, 2 January 2009 05:30 (5 years ago) Permalink

Ian would have been so happy to see what the lads had done with synthesizers.

With Oatmeal Sauce (Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You), Friday, 2 January 2009 05:31 (5 years ago) Permalink

see, i always thought it said 'cuts you life, like a broken knife'

great song though and i believe that's the footage from Play At Home.

brotherlovesdub, Friday, 2 January 2009 05:34 (5 years ago) Permalink

bah, 'cuts your life' obv.

brotherlovesdub, Friday, 2 January 2009 05:34 (5 years ago) Permalink

yeah it fucking cuts your goddamn life like a broken knife
anyone who has the godadmn 12"

With Oatmeal Sauce (Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You), Friday, 2 January 2009 05:36 (5 years ago) Permalink

yes, flip for maximum satisfaction. it does appear by your frequent posting you are Lonesome Tonight.

brotherlovesdub, Friday, 2 January 2009 05:38 (5 years ago) Permalink

Brother loves dub, did you not see that thing in the video clip where they showed the old Factory club that Saville & Wilson were pictured outside?

With Oatmeal Sauce (Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You), Friday, 2 January 2009 05:40 (5 years ago) Permalink

LONESOME TONIGHT!!!!!!!
OH MY GUCKING FOD!

Let me get my iPod.

With Oatmeal Sauce (Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You), Friday, 2 January 2009 05:41 (5 years ago) Permalink

Grimly please help. Grimly has to come back when the Brits get online, Grimly. Please make some sense out of all this. I've got Brian Eno in my James back pocket and shit.

With Oatmeal Sauce (Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You), Friday, 2 January 2009 05:42 (5 years ago) Permalink

Grimly please help.

I heard early Joy Division tonight earlier. Warswaw and everything. I'm scarred.

With Oatmeal Sauce (Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You), Friday, 2 January 2009 05:43 (5 years ago) Permalink

my eyes are made of stone
how many times before
did you leave my soul alone

With Oatmeal Sauce (Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You), Friday, 2 January 2009 05:45 (5 years ago) Permalink

Lonesome Tonight is sublime.

Millsner, Friday, 2 January 2009 05:46 (5 years ago) Permalink

xxxxx-post
i stopped watching it after a short bit because i had seen that clip before.

brotherlovesdub, Friday, 2 January 2009 05:46 (5 years ago) Permalink

Millsner makes an appearance! Hey dude! :)

With Oatmeal Sauce (Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You), Friday, 2 January 2009 05:47 (5 years ago) Permalink

BUT WHAT ABOUT MURDER????

MURDER
MURDER
MURDER
MURDER
MURDER
MURDER
MURDER
MURDER
MURDER

With Oatmeal Sauce (Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You), Friday, 2 January 2009 05:48 (5 years ago) Permalink

CROWS! I HATE THEM!

seriously, blackbirds on capitol hill are vicious.

brotherlovesdub, Friday, 2 January 2009 05:49 (5 years ago) Permalink

I played the 7" and 12" versions of Temptation back-to-back for a friend last night, driving in the middle of a snow squall. At her suggestion, even!

Millsner, Friday, 2 January 2009 06:07 (5 years ago) Permalink

how did you keep the record player steady?

milling through the grinder, grinding through the mill (S-), Friday, 2 January 2009 06:22 (5 years ago) Permalink

a steady hand

Millsner, Friday, 2 January 2009 06:25 (5 years ago) Permalink

I hate you all you're going to make me have a vinyl orgasm in about 45 seconds

With Oatmeal Sauce (Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You), Friday, 2 January 2009 06:37 (5 years ago) Permalink

6 months pass...

Alex in NYC, Wednesday, 15 July 2009 00:53 (5 years ago) Permalink

2 years pass...

Okay what the hell

Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 19:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

that is just bizarre all the way around

I spend a lot of time thinking about apricots (DJP), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 19:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

gah. jamie oliver is everywhere.

kid steel (cajunsunday), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 19:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

Explains why the New Order remastering has been such a problem. I can hear Keith Allen now: "Nah, mate, the original tapes went missing..."

Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 20:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

Guns, jewelry and Factory masters? I bet the police can beat this out of Bez.

da croupier, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 20:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

Shaun was all ready to call Tony Wilson with the ransom demands but then couldn't remember where he left everything and soon forgot there was a stash house in the first place.

da croupier, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 20:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

crazy. hopefully we'll see something neat come from those tapes provided Hooky and Barney can talk to each other long enough to get it done

Edward Bax, Wednesday, 15 February 2012 00:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

Hooky found the original master for "Unknown Pleasures" in much the same way, in the basement of the Hacienda. According to his book, it was acting as grounding for the dance floor.

Mark G, Wednesday, 15 February 2012 00:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

The Onion weighs in

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 16 February 2012 16:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

Hopefully the masters are in pretty good shape. I seem to remember Robert Smith saying a few years back that the masters to 'Seventeen Seconds' got severely damaged.

Turrican, Friday, 17 February 2012 23:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

this wasn't true, btw, it was clarified elsewhere that this situation is the one hook outlined as happeneing several years ago. people misinterpreted oliver's tweet.

akm, Friday, 17 February 2012 23:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

Alan Mcgee is flogging off all his old shit and it contains many, many items of interest to the New Order / Joy Division obsessive such as myself (but please don't bid on item 91 because I want that for sentimentral reasons - k thanx)

New Order stuff

Joy Division stuff

Ned Trifle X, Tuesday, 21 February 2012 11:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

aww i was hoping one of the t-shirts was the one with ian with head in hands & lots of small orange squares at the bottom - they were everywhere c. 1983-5 and i'd get all sentimental for one of those (+ that photocopied book collecting music press clippings & badly transcribed lyrics!)

zappi, Tuesday, 21 February 2012 12:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

Which one is item 91? You can't tell until after you've clicked on one.

Mark G, Tuesday, 21 February 2012 12:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

"Prev Lot | Next Lot" on right hand side once you've clicked on one

zappi, Tuesday, 21 February 2012 12:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

It's a poster for a gig in 1988 with the Mondays and ACR. I went with the woman who is now Mrs. Trifle (awwww...).

Ned Trifle X, Tuesday, 21 February 2012 21:23 (2 years ago) Permalink


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