Hilary Duff: Joy for pre-teens, not just Humbert Humbert

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Yeah, Dom hit the nail on the head. This unspoken agreement, to look past all the 'obvious' criticisms that mark brought up, because they're just too cliche'd or fraught with bad old biases about authenticity or whatever. It's really kind of condescending, thinking that the only way to discuss bouncy, youthful music is to write like an exciteable 12-year-old or try to be less cynical about it than even the actual kids listening it are (although David's Stylus columns have at least a kind of affectionate irreverence that's not too far from "Jeezy has a pointy head"-type humor).

(xpost to strongo - the irony is that R&B teenpop has kind of become its own, even more lucrative offshoot of the more overtly white Disneypop. but then, most of the acts on the Scream Tour kinda suck as far as R&B goes.)

― Alex in Baltimore, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:10 (sixteen years ago) link

pretty ricky have some pretty great songs xxp

― deej, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:10 (sixteen years ago) link

but your entire argument did appear to hang off that case?

Then you may be reading my argument wrong. Singing the songs of these individuals on the front porch has nothing to do with whether or not Ashlee's discography or talent approaches that of Dylan's.

This is the tarnishing of which I spake: of dragging the canon (or "canon", if you prefer) down to the level of Ashlee and her peers, whom I see as pure product in the age of flogging the long-dead horse of accessible pop/rock. It becomes, "well, it's all product, after all, jeez!", which is fine. Maybe it is. I'm not here to change anyone's mind.

― mark 0, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:14 (sixteen years ago) link

Man, music ain't nothing but three chords and a haircut.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:15 (sixteen years ago) link

Treat it that way and you'll do fine.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:15 (sixteen years ago) link

well thats what i kinda dont get. im not sure how bob is less 'product' than ashlee. im not sure how talent and product are being linked either (surely there are talented artists that are super marketed, and untalented artists that arent sold as product at all - i dont see the relationship)

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:16 (sixteen years ago) link

xxxxxpost

well my problem with that stuff is that i kinda think that rnb sucks right now too

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:16 (sixteen years ago) link

and if we're coming down to 'talent' or whatever, then bob would lose out pretty heavy to someone like mingus

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:17 (sixteen years ago) link

Mark: the reason I brought up singing is that it seems to me there's a lot MORE encouragement to sing - individually, collectively, as bonding or not - around, largely thanks to American Idol and karaoke. So we're in kind of a golden age for participatory music making! But I'm thinking maybe you're keener on something else.

― Groke, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:18 (sixteen years ago) link

the idea of making music, of bonding with your kids/nieces/nephews by, say, playing bluegrass on the front porch

as has been pointed out you can sing ashlee simpson songs on your front porch just as easily as bob dylan ones. but if you're getting at the communalism of music, the collective joy one can get out of it, i agree, that's a fine thing indeed! i get it mostly from dancing to techno lasers all night. and it's been pointed out as a flaw in commercial pop elsewhere, it's music without a scene or a community, without 'grassroots' - i disagree with this though, it may not have come from a community but it can be consumed in a communal way.

also if we're going to talk about whether things sound EMACIATED or not i wouldn't hesitate to call the bare dry bones of boring bob dylan emaciated in comparison with ashlee's full-blooded, slightly raucous take on celebrity skin-era courtney love.

Surely most people's problem with the teenpop thread is the abject humourlessness of it?

i'm not sure whether we should trust you on anything relating to jokes given that your idea of humour = wikipedia vandalism and shouting "ban louis jagger". lame!

i think part of the reason i have completely disconnect with "teen pop" is that there's no r&b in any of it anymore. and most of the stuff i liked around the turn of the millennium was basically urban radio with training wheels.

i've repeatedly said on the teenpop thread that this is a problem for me as well wrt current strains of the genre - i love bits here and there of the confessional, earnest style but i can't fully embrace it (which is why i've never heard an aly & aj song, don't care for the veronicas or lillix &c, had a barrier to loving ashlee for ages). and tbh i'd love it if it did pay attention to r&b more, but in the meantime i don't think the confessional rock version of teenpop is without its merits, and it's capable of producing some really fantastic stuff. (the reason i loved the paris album so much is because it took the lite-rock stuff, made it less earnest, and nodded towards club r&b at the same time - marrying both strains of teenpop.)

a gazillion xps

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:20 (sixteen years ago) link

i'm not sure whether we should trust you on anything relating to jokes given that your idea of humour = wikipedia vandalism and shouting "ban louis jagger". lame!

We already did "humourlessness is not the opposite of funny". Please read a thread before responding.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:21 (sixteen years ago) link

my problem with teenpop obsession is the same problem i have with any obsession, i.e. i don't get obsessed with whole swathes of music. i couldn't be a rabid teenpop thread poster anymore than i could be ethan.

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:22 (sixteen years ago) link

Genre bandwagonnery is something we should have moved on by now. As a people, as a profession, as a fucking message board.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:23 (sixteen years ago) link

fwiw my music-obsessed tween-aged kid is waaay more critical -- not to mention less self-conscious -- than anybody on the teenpop thread, whose taste he roughtly shares. also he doesn't congratulate himself for liking contemporary pop nor condemn his peers who like classic rock.

― m coleman, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:25 (sixteen years ago) link

"the list of bands who i've drunkenly assured my friends "well that's the last we'll hear of THEM," who then went on to become international superstars, is quite long"

For me, that's compounded by an equally long list of bands that I've assured my friends will be huge in six months and are now broken up or still toiling in bars.

"hilary duff isn't particularly fun. but she is hot, cuz she's fly. you ain't cuz you not."

Rod and Mario, the two Tigers announcers, were bandying about the word "tautology" about a week ago, defining it as "something obvious." Were I giving a lecture using pop culture as example (a "lexture"), this would be my perfect tautology.

― I eat cannibals, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:25 (sixteen years ago) link

dont agree with that at all dom! the best music is genre-based and the best songs all sound exactly the same as each other

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:26 (sixteen years ago) link

Mark: the reason I brought up singing is that it seems to me there's a lot MORE encouragement to sing - individually, collectively, as bonding or not - around, largely thanks to American Idol and karaoke. So we're in kind of a golden age for participatory music making! But I'm thinking maybe you're keener on something else.

The bluegrass/gospel angle is stronger to me personally, because it was something handed down from generation to generation, predating the mass marketing and mass consumption of recorded music. Karaoke is sort of celebrating the glut of mass-consumed music using canned music; it's a good start, but (again, to me) doesn't quite match un-canned music.

― mark 0, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:26 (sixteen years ago) link

which might be why i have a million western swing songs when *logically* i could probably do with about 8

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:27 (sixteen years ago) link

i kind of agree with mark, re:karoake, but theres nothing to stop people playing ashlee songs, just the same as bob

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:28 (sixteen years ago) link

Karaoke isn't a specifically "musical" endeavour though? I mean, when I do karaoke I'm not thinking "Wow, I am now in the same lineage of Dylan/Ashlee and I am MAKING ART", I think "Wow, it'd sure be fun to sing "The Impression That I Get" right now. Is it on the list?"

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:28 (sixteen years ago) link

i mean with guitar and piano etc

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:28 (sixteen years ago) link

and isn't amerikan idle as much about becoming a star as making music?

― m coleman, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:29 (sixteen years ago) link

Are genre bandwagonning and crate-digging the same thing though? Are teenpop thread regulars the new pasty-skinned DJs in Tokyo basement record stores?

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:30 (sixteen years ago) link

i have no idea. i just think that 'genre' whatever it is, is a positive and cohesive thing

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:31 (sixteen years ago) link

I mean, rap threads can take 300 post detours into "Young Jeezy has a pointy head", it's hard to imagine the teenpop thread doing similar.

uh wtf do you think the excitement and frothy delight most of the teenpop people take in tabloid bobbins like "omg hilary dissed lindsay and paris dissed nicole and lindsay ran over another photographer and did a ton of coke and paris might go to jail" are??

it's really kind of condescending, thinking that the only way to discuss bouncy, youthful music is to write like an exciteable 12-year-old

i'm sorry, one minute the teenpop thread is criticised for being earnest and humourless, and the next it's too exciteable and frothy?? make up your goddamn minds already.

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:31 (sixteen years ago) link

wait a minute wait a minute...

does young jeezy really have a pointy head?

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:32 (sixteen years ago) link

good question, Dom, but I think the whole Hollertronix-type hipster DJ slash subgenre expert/ambassador mold is blurring the line between genre bandwagonning and crate-digging that used to be more distinct. (xpost)

― Alex in Baltimore, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:32 (sixteen years ago) link

Well I was assuming that a lot of the impulse for bonding-via-music-making came from the 'fun' motive not the 'art' motive - the pub singalong, say, isn't making art but it's definitely bonding.

xpost

― Groke, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:33 (sixteen years ago) link

i agree with gareth on genre. i could never be a specialist - not in techno, not in r&b, not in teenpop (at this point i would like to point out that though i seem to be something of a teenpop-thread strawman, i barely post on the thing! because i can't keep up with it!) - because i like too many genres. but it is good when things within these genres adhere to them. i like formalism basically, and not so much fusion.

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:33 (sixteen years ago) link

omg he does!!!

you wouldnt want to balance a valuable on that dome!

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:34 (sixteen years ago) link

does young jeezy really have a pointy head?

http://z.about.com/d/crime/1/0/q/B/youngjeezymug.jpg

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:34 (sixteen years ago) link

"i'm sorry, one minute the teenpop thread is criticised for being earnest and humourless, and the next it's too exciteable and frothy??"

it is all things to all people. it is the alpha and the omega. it is your dream come true...and your darkest nightmare! apparently.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:34 (sixteen years ago) link

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:34 (sixteen years ago) link

I thought this thread was making some progress, but we're back to a bunch of people completely misrepresenting what's actually being written on the teenpop thread.

Alex, if you think the column has an "affectionate irreverence," how come this doesn't translate to the thread itself, where I get most of my ideas for the column in the first place? When does Frank or xhuxk or Tom or Tim F or Mordy or Eppy or just about anyone sound like an "exciteable 12-year-old?

And final point, Frank saying that Ashlee is Bob Dylan's equal (or that Brie Larson's baiting her fans is reminiscent of his baiting the press) isn't mere contrarianism -- he's constantly making arguments as to why Ashlee isn't simply worth discussing (provocative), but BETTER than any other music he's listening to lately.

Aly and AJ are totally exasperating and piss me off constantly, and half their music is negligible, too sappy even for me (and I actually own the Ali Lohan Xmas album) -- but they make me think about my relationship to their music more than just about any band I can think of at the moment. No one's throwing these names out like wrenches in the gears or something -- there's serious (but not humorless) engagement happening.

jeeeez xxxposts

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:35 (sixteen years ago) link

serious, you could have someones eye out with that guys head

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:36 (sixteen years ago) link

i think a teenpop artist should make an album about saving the whales

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:37 (sixteen years ago) link

not getting obsessed with some chimerical "genre" != not getting obsessed over music

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:39 (sixteen years ago) link

this is how the hitler youth started

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:39 (sixteen years ago) link

^^ oh god, those guys were OBSESSED!

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:40 (sixteen years ago) link

not getting obsessed with some chimerical "genre" != not getting obsessed over music

^^^ this. The days when I heard a song I liked and then immediately had to download every record ever released on the same label = ghost.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:40 (sixteen years ago) link

i am only an expert on pre-teen pop. i know everything there is to know about dee dee doodle's keytar techniques and the techno stylings of lazytown.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:42 (sixteen years ago) link

I dunno, though, dudes, are we arguing then that we should all be dilettante jack-of-all-trades, then? Because that's pretty problematic too.

― Alex in Baltimore, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:43 (sixteen years ago) link

i would rather my passions tend toward the deep and focused than broad and shallow

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:43 (sixteen years ago) link

that sounds like some high falutin penthouse forum shit

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:43 (sixteen years ago) link

I think we *need* the guys who throw themselves waist deep into all these new and overlooked genres, I'm just saying that I don't wanna invite any of them out drinking.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:44 (sixteen years ago) link

well im kinda busy that nite anyhow

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:46 (sixteen years ago) link

in honor of this thread i have put radio disney on my t.v. they are now playing c&c music factory. see, if hilary sounded more like c&c music factory i would be first in line to buy her album. maybe.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:47 (sixteen years ago) link

I dunno, though, dudes, are we arguing then that we should all be dilettante jack-of-all-trades, then? Because that's pretty problematic too.

on the one hand yes - we need specialists, i think knowing your field inside out is a really good thing, and certainly tremendously helpful to 'outsiders'

on the other hand - personally i could not go through life only listening to one type of music; time and finance and such dictate that if i choose to pay attention to three or more genres i'm going to feel somewhat dilettantish in each

i don't think castigating people for not being specialists is ever going to be helpful though - i'm a music geek, i spend a large proportion of time zealously keeping up with new music, and there's no way i could do it. most ordinary consumers of music are dilettantes - looking down on them would be rather small-minded and snobbish i think

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:47 (sixteen years ago) link

this from Mr "i'm not a populist, i think i disapprove of it"

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:49 (sixteen years ago) link

Specialists are a good thing, groupthink isn't. Or, in another way, the true evil lies with the followers not the dictator.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:50 (sixteen years ago) link

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