Sounds good, I think we're getting a good consensus on that list of records.
Any comments on these, folks?
Peter Brotzmann - Born BrokePeter Brotzmann - The Brain of the Dog in SectionPeter Brotzmann - MedicinaOrnette Coleman - Tomorrow Is the QuestionJohn Coltrane - Stellar RegionsMiles Davis - 'Round about MidnightCecil Taylor - Trance
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 19:37 (thirteen years ago) link
(The album title Stellar Regions is a huge carrot for me, btw, in case that's not obvious.)
'round about midnight is essential miles/coltrane/adderly. title track (well sort of the title track) features one of coltrane's best-ever solos.
― tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 19:38 (thirteen years ago) link
oops addderly isn't on that record. still essential!
― tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 19:39 (thirteen years ago) link
Derek Bailey - Ballads
have to say, I've never been able to get into this one. the standards with out improv flourishes concept doesn't really do much for me. I would definitely recommend the aforementioned topography of the lungs or his solo aida album over it.
aida is out of print, however. but it can be found online, of course, and it's totally worth looking up.
― original bgm, Monday, 31 January 2011 19:40 (thirteen years ago) link
Ornette Coleman - Tomorrow Is the Question
pre-Atlantic, pre-Haden/Higgins. I'd put it down about 10th on the Coleman depth chart, which for him is still great.
― The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Monday, 31 January 2011 19:56 (thirteen years ago) link
the simple fact is there are particular things you can do with large scale ensembles in terms of harmonic complexity and multiple parts that is just not possible with smaller combos. they have a wider tonal palette
otm - globe unity, jazz composer's orchestra, there's a lot of great out large ensemble jazz records out there. but if, you're like Phil and just don't like large jazz ensembles, then, it might not be worth your time. There's too much music.
― sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 20:07 (thirteen years ago) link
Large-ensemble free jazz is a very different thing from "big band music," though. I wrote this about large ensemble free jazz stuff for Perfect Sound Forever back in '03.
― that's not funny. (unperson), Monday, 31 January 2011 20:10 (thirteen years ago) link
Re the short list above: The only Brötz on that list that I've heard is Medicina and it's just okay. Stellar Regions is one of the very few studio recordings by Coltrane's final band w/Pharoah Sanders, Alice Coltrane and Rashied Ali, and is excellent. 'Round About Midnight is essential. Trance is a single-disc boiling down of the 2CD set Nefertiti, The Beautiful One Has Come, and you really need to hear the whole thing.
― that's not funny. (unperson), Monday, 31 January 2011 20:12 (thirteen years ago) link
xp - yeah, Phil, we know, but you've posted before about not liking large ensemble jazz - free or big band - or am I misremembering that?
― sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 20:21 (thirteen years ago) link
I always have to pop in and say Ole Coltrane is absolutely essential for "Ole" along. Double bass baby.
― matt2, Monday, 31 January 2011 20:27 (thirteen years ago) link
Albert Ayler's New Grass is great. It's an odd record deserving of more love.
― sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 20:29 (thirteen years ago) link
x-post That should say "Ole" alone.
― matt2, Monday, 31 January 2011 20:42 (thirteen years ago) link
Still nine hours left of the Roy Eldridge 100th birthday tribute http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/wkcr/
― Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 20:48 (thirteen years ago) link
If you want to hear some cool stuff done with a big band, check out this album:
http://i060.radikal.ru/0912/4f/9100e7dcd3bb.jpg
The first tune on it (a version of Mongo Santamaria's "Afro Blue") especially is a good example of the sort of massive, epic sound you can't get with a small band.
― Tuomas, Monday, 31 January 2011 21:48 (thirteen years ago) link
This is another good example of an album which, at heart, has pretty traditional big band arrangements, yet gets quite adventurous results out of them:
http://storage.canalblog.com/43/04/500408/29169852.jpg
― Tuomas, Monday, 31 January 2011 21:53 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah, and something like africa/brass is coltrane (and eric dolphy's) version of the big band sound. always thought it was kind of their attempt to update the ellington "jungle" sound of the 20s/30s.
― tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 21:54 (thirteen years ago) link
Still trying to think of suitable punishment for the big band haters: maybe a baritone sax playing "Moanin'" in one ear and a trombone playing "Caravan" in the other.
― Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:00 (thirteen years ago) link
unperson saying he also doesnt like big bands doesnt make this seem any less wtf to me
*the more you know* big bands developed because prohibition drove dancers away from bars & into larger dancehalls which required louder performers
― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:02 (thirteen years ago) link
Hate to be boringly obvious but Sketches of Spain does the large ensemble thing for me.
― seminal fuiud (NickB), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:03 (thirteen years ago) link
thats not really 'big band' tho, its all orchestrated
― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:08 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah, gil evans is a league of his own -- he used "big" bands, but he's not really big band.
― tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:09 (thirteen years ago) link
Sketches is the only Miles/Gil Evans album I like. Miles Ahead and Porgy & Bess do nothing for me, never have.
― that's not funny. (unperson), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:11 (thirteen years ago) link
'porgy & bess' is amazing. 'prayer (oh doctor jesus)' is one of my favorite things miles ever recorded
― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:12 (thirteen years ago) link
miles ahead was def the lesser of the 3 but i cant imagine them doing 'nothing' for someone o_O
one of my favorite things ever is the brief little "here comes de honey man" from porgy and bess. must've listened to it hundreds of times.
― tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:13 (thirteen years ago) link
― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, January 31, 2011 2:08 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark
so orchestration doesn't equal big band? could you explain this a little more for a n00b like me? serious question.
― sleeve, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:14 (thirteen years ago) link
big band implies the tradition of the dance bands & swing bands created by paul whiteman & his band, its the template duke ellington ran with & that defined popular music for p much 2 decades
― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:15 (thirteen years ago) link
but people are defining it much more loosely on this thread
― sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:16 (thirteen years ago) link
gil's orchestration was much closer to contemporary classical music
― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:16 (thirteen years ago) link
― sarahel, Monday, January 31, 2011 4:16 PM (21 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
what bands did i not cover in that description, aside from gil's
'charlie parker with strings'?
― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:17 (thirteen years ago) link
Mingus Ah Um might be the best way in, perfect mix of big band style arrangements in a smaller ensemble setting
or turn up 'Sing, Sing, Sing' really loud
― Mangrove Earthshoe (herb albert), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:17 (thirteen years ago) link
ok that makes sense (xp about Gil Evans)
― sleeve, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:17 (thirteen years ago) link
no, i think people are also using the term "big band" to refer to large ensemble recordings from the 60s and 70s that aren't "big band" - just bands that are big
― sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:18 (thirteen years ago) link
to whom are you referring
― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:18 (thirteen years ago) link
phil posted:I'm gonna speak in ilxor's defense here - I don't like big bands either. All those dudes blowing in unison remind me of chained-up oarsmen on a slave ship in some old movie. No thanks.
― sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:19 (thirteen years ago) link
UH
― 69, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:21 (thirteen years ago) link
i mean which bands. im sure there are, like, one or two others, maybe some 3rd stream ish, but im pretty sure that 'big bands' from that era, to the extent that they did exist any more, were in the big band tradition im talking about itt
― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:22 (thirteen years ago) link
anyway, I just want to post again about how awesome Ayler's New Grass is -- one of these tracks is reminiscent of the Benny Hill theme
― sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:22 (thirteen years ago) link
deej - bands from other eras, that have lots of musicians in them!!!
― sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:23 (thirteen years ago) link
can u name one
― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:24 (thirteen years ago) link
bands from other eras that are large that don't sound like Big Band? Dude, there are tons -- I mean, Anthony Braxton and Bill Dixon to thread.
― sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:24 (thirteen years ago) link
Darcy James Argue's Secret Society?
― Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:25 (thirteen years ago) link
brass bands
― ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:25 (thirteen years ago) link
― ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, January 31, 2011 4:25 PM (0 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
typically dont have more than 8-9 ppl iirc
― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:26 (thirteen years ago) link
Guillermo Klein y los Gauchos?
― Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:26 (thirteen years ago) link
But these are all good big bands. I wanna know which are the bad ones so I can steer clear of them.
― Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:27 (thirteen years ago) link
~sigh~ like i said i think there are a couple exceptions like gil evans but generally when someone says 'big bands' they are talking about the dominant tradition of 'big bands' in jazz which refers pretty much to your typical jazz band structure
― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:27 (thirteen years ago) link
I like Darcy James Argue's Secret Society a whole lot, because they reject a lot of the cliches of the style. The first two questions and answers from this interview will explain my position (and his take on it) more clearly than I've done in this thread. And Argue's album Infernal Machines is a must-hear.
― that's not funny. (unperson), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:27 (thirteen years ago) link