Usually the words "big band" mean "run for the hills" in my world... but maybe I shouldn't be so hasty.
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, January 31, 2011 11:21 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark
wtf
― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:31 (thirteen years ago) link
big bands are rad. they don't all sound like big bad voodoo daddy.
― tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 17:34 (thirteen years ago) link
haha.
― Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:36 (thirteen years ago) link
I think it was just this album cover that made ilxor run for the hillshttp://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qG7lCvInL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
― Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:37 (thirteen years ago) link
i remember that record being way heavier on the slow jamz than i expected when i copped it
― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:38 (thirteen years ago) link
wtf― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, January 31, 2011 11:31 AM (4 minutes ago)
― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, January 31, 2011 11:31 AM (4 minutes ago)
Insightful deej post, as always.
I'm just saying, I don't like much of the big band jazz stuff I've heard. Just being honest. And I'm not sure why that's surprising, given that I've started a thread about never having tried to get into jazz until now, and that I've been upfront that I'm approaching the genre from an entirely different angle than, say, deej (for me: tons of psych, kraut, free folk/rock).
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:38 (thirteen years ago) link
^^^^a+ all-time album. swings so, so hard.
xp to atomic mr basie
― bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:39 (thirteen years ago) link
its like asking for a rock primer & mentioning that you dont like the electric guitar, dude. i think 'wtf' is a fair response
― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:40 (thirteen years ago) link
Nah, I didn't say I don't like sax or trumpet or piano. I said I don't generally like what I've heard of the "big band" sound/aesthetic. Reminds me of seeing my high school marching band at a football game. And yes, I know that's insanely RONG, but whatever.
Anyway, there are plenty of rock fans on ILM who don't enjoy, say, the Stones or Beatles. Which is perfectly valid, and a matter of personal taste. Not sure how that's different from getting into jazz but having an aversion to big band stuff (which I'm open to exploring, btw, but have a feeling I won't enjoy as much as some people do).
Btw, I played a Sun Ra record today (first time!) and it was nice but not mindblowing. I'll do a full post/review a bit later once I've had more time to process, and the ILM albums poll shuts down for the day.
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:43 (thirteen years ago) link
Is that Joe Henderson record actually a big band thing? Usually the words "big band" mean "run for the hills" in my world... but maybe I shouldn't be so hasty.― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:21 (20 minutes ago) Bookmark
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:21 (20 minutes ago) Bookmark
its a v modern progressive big band kinda thing, not benny goodman stylee at all--saying this as a dude who owns a lot of benny goodman & basie & krupa etc
― HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:43 (thirteen years ago) link
Atomic Basie is great but you should also check out some classic Basie with the All-American Rhythm Section- Jo Jones on drums, Freddie Green on guitar and Walter Page on bass, all of whom are revered by players of their respective instruments- they kind of wrote the book on how the jazz rhythm section is supposed to work. They always sound great especially when Lester Young is in the band, especially with Jimmy Rushing ("Mr.Five By Five") on vocals. Actually all I've got on this myself is some old Columbia comps- maybe I'll spring for the Mosaic Basie-Lester Young box.
― Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:53 (thirteen years ago) link
this is what you want in terms of early basiehttp://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x204/Epicentre_TS/cd_Count_Basie_DeccaRecordings.jpgbut i feel like there might be better sounding versions of these recordings out there? comp was early 90s, i think.
― tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 17:55 (thirteen years ago) link
Monk's "Big Band and Quartet in Concert" might be a good place to start, as far as overcoming your aversion to the big band sound, ilxor. Unorthodox charts and typical monk quirkiness keep it from, you know, reminding you too much of Benny Goodman and grammas and grandpas gettin' down...
― Sanford, Monday, 31 January 2011 17:58 (thirteen years ago) link
http://musicoogle.com/uploads/posts/2010-06/1277067856_1e813cf200081.jpeg
― Sanford, Monday, 31 January 2011 17:59 (thirteen years ago) link
typical monk quirkiness
Can you expand on this thought a bit? I haven't listened to a ton of Monk yet, but I played Straight, No Chaser the other day and it sounds pretty, er, straightforward to me, in terms of his piano playing. #wentovermyhead
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:00 (thirteen years ago) link
reminding you too much of Benny Goodman and grammas and grandpas
― Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:03 (thirteen years ago) link
Listen to at least the first four minutes of this, and tell me what you think:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TLEPQZIVOg
― Sanford, Monday, 31 January 2011 18:06 (thirteen years ago) link
Oh Yeah - fantastic, rowdy, profane, funny, swingin' - my favorite of these
The Avant-Garde - think Tyler covered this, just a near miss record all around, good in theory but not practice.
Stellar Regions - have this but can't remember it, thanks for the reminder. with Alice and Rashied so it's gotta be at least decent.
― sleeve, Monday, 31 January 2011 18:10 (thirteen years ago) link
re: Monk, this from his wiki page sums it up pretty well:
His compositions and improvisations are full of dissonant harmonies and angular melodic twists, and are consistent with Monk's unorthodox approach to the piano, which combined a highly percussive attack with abrupt, dramatic use of silences and hesitations.
― The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:10 (thirteen years ago) link
Certain cats like Monk and Coltrane who were viewed as quirky or far-out at the time by some of their contemporaries are a lot easier to listen to and relate to for non-jazz listeners because they are such strong personalities, composers and band leaders that their stuff doesn't run the risk of falling back into the vast background ocean of jazz. Plus, we have had 50+ years of all kinds of other weird sounds coming at us to take some of the edge off.
― Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:11 (thirteen years ago) link
otm
― bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:12 (thirteen years ago) link
well, there you go!
― Sanford, Monday, 31 January 2011 18:13 (thirteen years ago) link
I wish I could recommend the Kelley bio of Monk more highly, but ultimately it came across more as a laundry list of his and the world's grievances against each other, deserved and undeserved, and less about Monk the composer/player.
― The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:13 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah Mingus and Ra both have pretty interesting takes on trad big band structure. I can see how the millionth version of "take the A train" wouldn't appeal to ilxor's predispositions, but it's a fairly fluid subset of jazz, there's a lot you can do with large ensembles.
many xposts
― ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:14 (thirteen years ago) link
i think ilxor should worry about his first time thru 'take the a train' rather than his millionth
― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:16 (thirteen years ago) link
Funny, but I've heard "A Train" a bunch of times before.
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:20 (thirteen years ago) link
Though I'm not sure which recording/version.
Just make sure you get the ending right, or it's a $50 fine.
wish I could recommend the Kelley bio of Monk more highly, but ultimately it came across more as a laundry list of his and the world's grievances against each other, deserved and undeserved, and less about Monk the composer/player.
― Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:20 (thirteen years ago) link
^^^IRL lolz
― ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:28 (thirteen years ago) link
A+
― The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:55 (thirteen years ago) link
reminded me of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-ssZeOZkWU
― ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:56 (thirteen years ago) link
I'm gonna speak in ilxor's defense here - I don't like big bands either. All those dudes blowing in unison remind me of chained-up oarsmen on a slave ship in some old movie. No thanks.
I have those Decca Basies, and sometimes I get in the mood for 'em. Other than that, though, I don't tend to like any jazz group with more than seven or at most eight musicians, and I prefer five or six, max.
― that's not funny. (unperson), Monday, 31 January 2011 19:01 (thirteen years ago) link
All those dudes blowing in unison remind me of chained-up oarsmen on a slave ship in some old movie.
Wow, and I thought my being reminded of high school marching bands was bad...
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 19:05 (thirteen years ago) link
Re: big bands -- love the rich tones they achieve, often not a fan of the material. Search: Gil Evans' stuff, Zappa's Grand Wazoo
― The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Monday, 31 January 2011 19:14 (thirteen years ago) link
Gil Evans, oh hell yeah. I played "Live at the Sweet Basil" on a long drive recently and the time flew by. Not your great-grandpa's big band.
― Brad C., Monday, 31 January 2011 19:16 (thirteen years ago) link
the simple fact is there are particular things you can do with large scale ensembles in terms of harmonic complexity and multiple parts that is just not possible with smaller combos. they have a wider tonal palette (in the case of Ra, they also have a wider rhythmic palette haha).
― ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 31 January 2011 19:18 (thirteen years ago) link
John Coltrane & Don Cherry - The Avant-GardeMiles Davis - Black BeautyJoe Henderson - Big BandCharles Mingus - Oh Yeah
^^ these, for reasons stated by others (note ilxor-style dbl carrot #credmove). the avant-garde is a personal favorite. maybe not coltrane's finest hour, but cherry & the rest of the band are great on it.
― normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Monday, 31 January 2011 19:34 (thirteen years ago) link
(note ilxor-style dbl carrot #credmove)
NICE!
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 19:36 (thirteen years ago) link
xpost yeah, i mean, a lot of stuff like ellington or gil evans is even *more* psychedelic to my ears than the 60s "out" stuff. just sort of this bottomless sound that can be as heavy as any doom record, or as light as, i dunno, ambient eno.
― tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 19:36 (thirteen years ago) link
Sounds good, I think we're getting a good consensus on that list of records.
Any comments on these, folks?
Peter Brotzmann - Born BrokePeter Brotzmann - The Brain of the Dog in SectionPeter Brotzmann - MedicinaOrnette Coleman - Tomorrow Is the QuestionJohn Coltrane - Stellar RegionsMiles Davis - 'Round about MidnightCecil Taylor - Trance
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 19:37 (thirteen years ago) link
(The album title Stellar Regions is a huge carrot for me, btw, in case that's not obvious.)
'round about midnight is essential miles/coltrane/adderly. title track (well sort of the title track) features one of coltrane's best-ever solos.
― tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 19:38 (thirteen years ago) link
oops addderly isn't on that record. still essential!
― tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 19:39 (thirteen years ago) link
Derek Bailey - Ballads
have to say, I've never been able to get into this one. the standards with out improv flourishes concept doesn't really do much for me. I would definitely recommend the aforementioned topography of the lungs or his solo aida album over it.
aida is out of print, however. but it can be found online, of course, and it's totally worth looking up.
― original bgm, Monday, 31 January 2011 19:40 (thirteen years ago) link
Ornette Coleman - Tomorrow Is the Question
pre-Atlantic, pre-Haden/Higgins. I'd put it down about 10th on the Coleman depth chart, which for him is still great.
― The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Monday, 31 January 2011 19:56 (thirteen years ago) link
the simple fact is there are particular things you can do with large scale ensembles in terms of harmonic complexity and multiple parts that is just not possible with smaller combos. they have a wider tonal palette
otm - globe unity, jazz composer's orchestra, there's a lot of great out large ensemble jazz records out there. but if, you're like Phil and just don't like large jazz ensembles, then, it might not be worth your time. There's too much music.
― sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 20:07 (thirteen years ago) link
Large-ensemble free jazz is a very different thing from "big band music," though. I wrote this about large ensemble free jazz stuff for Perfect Sound Forever back in '03.
― that's not funny. (unperson), Monday, 31 January 2011 20:10 (thirteen years ago) link
Re the short list above: The only Brötz on that list that I've heard is Medicina and it's just okay. Stellar Regions is one of the very few studio recordings by Coltrane's final band w/Pharoah Sanders, Alice Coltrane and Rashied Ali, and is excellent. 'Round About Midnight is essential. Trance is a single-disc boiling down of the 2CD set Nefertiti, The Beautiful One Has Come, and you really need to hear the whole thing.
― that's not funny. (unperson), Monday, 31 January 2011 20:12 (thirteen years ago) link
xp - yeah, Phil, we know, but you've posted before about not liking large ensemble jazz - free or big band - or am I misremembering that?
― sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 20:21 (thirteen years ago) link
I always have to pop in and say Ole Coltrane is absolutely essential for "Ole" along. Double bass baby.
― matt2, Monday, 31 January 2011 20:27 (thirteen years ago) link