And yes, I realize the irony of me asking other ILXors not to derail threads (my speciality, oftentimes).
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:16 (thirteen years ago) link
Right, the racial aspects, e.g white people deciding that jazz is about "a certain ecstatic quality" that black people bring to the music and that stiff boring white people fail to get.
― hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, January 28, 2011 2:08 PM (6 minutes ago)
Exactly -- it's definitely problematic.
― sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:17 (thirteen years ago) link
Zorn's film music is pretty good. The Cobra stuff is also worth listening to.
― sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:18 (thirteen years ago) link
Zorn strikes me as perhaps needing a whole separate investigation. Pretty unwieldy catalog. May check him out at some point...
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:19 (thirteen years ago) link
your friend's ideas about race & aesthetics here are all twisted up imo. i'd love to stay and argue that the bad plus are neither co-opting nor watering down whatever your friend's idea of what free jazz should be, but i'm out for the weekend.
xp
― bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:19 (thirteen years ago) link
this used to be a good thread
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:21 (thirteen years ago) link
yes, definitely worthy of investigation, but not necessarily as part of your jazz research. He's a lot like Frank Zappa -- a composer above all, arranging the works for different ensembles depending on their needs. (In FZ's case, he arranged his work mostly for midsize rock band because it paid the bills and gave him total freedom.) Speaking of FZ, have his jazz albums been mentioned here? There are three classics, four if you count Ponty's King Kong.
― earnest goes to camp, ironic goes to ilm (pixel farmer), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:26 (thirteen years ago) link
my friend is a white guy who came up listening to punk rock, then got into free jazz and improv and played with European EFI dudes as well as a lot of Bay Area African-American old school free jazz dudes. He does have some skewed ideas about jazz, but basically, he thinks The Bad Plus suck, and he's applying arguments to The Bad Plus that denigrate them and what they do, primarily because he thinks they suck. This seems very common on ILX.
― sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:26 (thirteen years ago) link
And please do check out Archie Shepp. FIRE MUSIC!! Yes! And "Four for Trane"
Seeing that you were moved by Ornette, don't forget to search out his later, electric sounds: Of Human Feelings, Body Meta, and Dancing In Your Head...(if you want to get ridiculous about the early stuff, Beauty Is A Rare Thing has all you need)
Some might cringe at the concept, but this is amazing:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000AMYJK0/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music
― Sanford, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:35 (thirteen years ago) link
http://jazzbluesclub.com/2009/12/21/#
― Sanford, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:36 (thirteen years ago) link
fair enough. have to admit i don't have much respect for free jazz dudes who haven't spent some time playing other kinds of jazz, paying dues.
― bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:36 (thirteen years ago) link
Body Meta is great. And if Ornette rocks your world, it might be worth your while to check out Albert Ayler.
― sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:37 (thirteen years ago) link
(fer christsakes)
James Carter/Cyrus Chestnut/Ali Jackson/Reginald Veal - Gold Sounds (tribute to Pavement)
― Sanford, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:37 (thirteen years ago) link
xp Jordan: he played whatever Glenn Spearman asked him to play, because it was Glenn Spearman's band, and dude was a legend.
― sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:40 (thirteen years ago) link
fwiw all the great jazz musicians i know in my generation (most of whom are primarily involved in non-jazz music these days) have a fraught relationship with jazz. but even the guys who are really dedicated to free music have done their homework and can play anything if necessary.
― bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:41 (thirteen years ago) link
Even Derek Bailey put in his time on session work and dance bands and whatnot.
― earnest goes to camp, ironic goes to ilm (pixel farmer), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:43 (thirteen years ago) link
http://sickmouthy.wordpress.com/2011/01/16/top-ten-jazz-albums
I suspect my taste in jazz doesn't intersect massively with many other people on ILM. But we have lots if crossover in other areas so maybe you'll get some mileage from this.
Also, Courtney Pine's Modern Day Jazz Stories and e.s.t's Tuesday Wonderland. Love both of those deeply.
― Ukranian crocodile that swallowed a mobile phone (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:51 (thirteen years ago) link
So...what "Jazz" albums are totally right now, like a live album, especially for someone who never really cared about jazz and wants to make up for lost time? I mean, it's Friday night, no better time for some live jazz!
― I Don't Think It's Worth It, Personally.... (u s steel), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:52 (thirteen years ago) link
Black Saint and Sinner Lady is a great album.
My dad's a big Cannonball Adderley fan.
― sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:52 (thirteen years ago) link
Freak In by Dave Douglas, too.
― Ukranian crocodile that swallowed a mobile phone (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:53 (thirteen years ago) link
The Impressed with Giles Peterson compilations are awesome collections of 60s British stuff. Michael Garrick etc. Awesome.
― Ukranian crocodile that swallowed a mobile phone (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:54 (thirteen years ago) link
maybe just watch chris dave trio videos on youtube?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T39ZaFT1kA0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ5eduwP-4U
― bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:58 (thirteen years ago) link
Hmm, in terms of contemporary stuff, there are a lot of good players right now constantly walking the in/out line as I think I've talked about with Jordan. Some names I recommend checking out: Tony Malaby's Tamarindo, Drew Gress, Yeah No, stuff involving Chris Lightcap on bass and Gerald Cleaver on drums (including Chris Lightcap's records as a leader), Chad Taylor's Active Ingredients. Actually you might dig the Chicago Underground Trio and Quartet records since they have some noisy/proggy/spacey electronic elements that sort of bleed into other Chicago stuff a little (they share members with Isotope 217/Tortoise)
Actually I'd really recommend starting off with anything that has both William Parker and Hamid Drake on upright bass and drum kit, respectively (though I love the stuff where they play other instruments). They're definitely a key force in the last few decades of jazz and the direction it has taken, and relatively accessible because they're so rhythm-heavy.
Any of the Brad Mehldau Trio at the Vanugard recordings are great, intense and heady listens.
― hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, 28 January 2011 23:19 (thirteen years ago) link
And if Ornette rocks your world, it might be worth your while to check out Albert Ayler.
Good call! I actually saw the Ayler box set on Revenant a few months ago and reaaaaally wanted to pick it up (it was still $80 or so, and I passed). That was one of the aching non-purchases I almost made that's made me feel it's time to try my hand with jazz.
That, and everyone posting on Facebook about their favorite jazz albums... ^_^
Saw an Ayler album tonight: New Grass -- how is it?
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Saturday, 29 January 2011 00:52 (thirteen years ago) link
Haven't heard New Grass, but the Allmusic writeup intrigues me:
Possibly the most notorious Albert Ayler release and universally misunderstood (i.e., hated) by fans and critics alike. When New Grass was released in 1968 it received a hostile outcry of "sell-out."
The idea of Ayler aiming his uncompromising full-body style into commercial territory suggests a glorious incongruity. Doesn't sound like the best introduction to the man though. I'll rep for Live at the Village Vanguard forever, though I guess Spiritual Unity is his recognised classic album.
― Glenroe in 3D (seandalai), Saturday, 29 January 2011 01:39 (thirteen years ago) link
Don't go for New Grass as an introduction to Ayler. To hear his early style at its best, get Spiritual Unity. To hear his late style at its best, get Live on the Riviera or Fondation Maeght Nights.
― that's not funny. (unperson), Saturday, 29 January 2011 02:20 (thirteen years ago) link
^this^and when/if you get around to new grass or just in general have interest in the free dudes going pop, Sharrock's 'Paradise' is a super unique listen
― bear, bear, bear, Saturday, 29 January 2011 02:47 (thirteen years ago) link
I just listened to Paradise last week (because of the Sharrock thread), thought it was excellent. Though I'll keep returning to Black Woman, I guess.
― Glenroe in 3D (seandalai), Saturday, 29 January 2011 02:48 (thirteen years ago) link
both so good
― bear, bear, bear, Saturday, 29 January 2011 02:56 (thirteen years ago) link
DAMN! Thanks for those Chris Dave links. Awesome stuff.
― matt2, Saturday, 29 January 2011 02:58 (thirteen years ago) link
this thread kinda rules. never heard of Paradise (will keep an eye out), but Guitar is desrving of a tonna Sonny love. (the best solo guitar record ever?)never heard new grass or Live at the Village Vanguard either, but spiritual unity, after a dozen of so listens, hasn't ever really "hit" me, unlike Ornette, who never stops.just throwing my (asshat) preference out there
― KC & the sunshine banned (outdoor_miner), Saturday, 29 January 2011 03:04 (thirteen years ago) link
This thread is great by the way - I've always had a flirting relationship with jazz but in the past couple of years I've been getting more and more into it, and this is helping me fill in lots of gaps.
Also thank you to the free NW library exchange program that has tons of jazz records that just show up at my office within a couple days if I request them - this week I got Journey to Satchidananda, The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady, and Miles' On The Corner - I've had the complete sessions for that one but not the original record. Also picked up Herbie Hancock's Sextant from Amazon.
― joygoat, Saturday, 29 January 2011 03:07 (thirteen years ago) link
I hope this isn't too much of a derail, but where do I go looking for some Chris Dave stuff. Love this video too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NLuTeHJarY
― matt2, Saturday, 29 January 2011 03:23 (thirteen years ago) link
On some Robert Glasper stuff maybe?
― matt2, Saturday, 29 January 2011 03:32 (thirteen years ago) link
Just chiming in to say Machine Gun never really did it for me, much as I love so much of what came after it--Zorn, Mats G, Evan Parker (<--- this fucking guy), etc, seem so much more dynamic & textured to me.
That said, I love Brotzmann's Tentet stuff. Even if it is the square Brotzmann to like.
― HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Saturday, 29 January 2011 10:17 (thirteen years ago) link
oh yeah, Evan Parker -- Topography of the Lungs
― sarahel, Saturday, 29 January 2011 20:28 (thirteen years ago) link
I used to like Brötzmann a lot; these days, not so much. I mostly like him in loud electric contexts like with Last Exit or Full Blast, but some of the late '60s stuff is still pretty hot. Nipples and More Nipples are good and worth checking out.
― that's not funny. (unperson), Saturday, 29 January 2011 20:47 (thirteen years ago) link
Happy to take opinions on these records. I don't think I've seen any mentioned in this thread to date (naturally, I'll stop by the record store later this week and pick up the best of the lot):
Derek Bailey - BalladsPeter Brotzmann - Born BrokePeter Brotzmann - The Brain of the Dog in SectionPeter Brotzmann - MedicinaOrnette Coleman - The Art of the ImprovisersOrnette Coleman - Sound GrammarOrnette Coleman - Tomorrow Is the QuestionJohn Coltrane - Ole ColtraneJohn Coltrane - Stellar RegionsJohn Coltrane & Don Cherry - The Avant-GardeMiles Davis - Black BeautyMiles Davis - 'Round about MidnightJoe Henderson - Big Band (the title of this one makes me instinctively recoil in terror...)Charles Mingus - Oh YeahCecil Taylor - Trance
I also saw generic collections, titled The Impulse Years (or The Impulse Story, I forget?), for John Coltrane, Alice Coltrane and Archie Shepp -- are those worth picking up at some point?
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 15:04 (thirteen years ago) link
I hope this isn't too much of a derail, but where do I go looking for some Chris Dave stuff.
imo his recordings don't represent how completely ill he is, yet (although he has a solo record coming out soon), but i would check these out:
robert glasper, "double booked" (still haven't dug into this one yet but one of my friends is into it)
kenny garrett, "happy people"
maxwell, "blacksummer's night" (chris dave sounds great on the whole record, lets loose on "help somebody")
he also has some cuts on the last mint condition record:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlR1PlNKnJU
― bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Monday, 31 January 2011 15:58 (thirteen years ago) link
Dude, you should just turn on WKCR right now and listen to the Roy Eldridge 100th birthday tribute and you will get quite an education right there.
― Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 15:59 (thirteen years ago) link
ornette's sound grammar: recent live album, beautiful sound, mix of his 60s-era approach and some atmospheric violin (played better than he's known to...). Critically acclaimed and highly recommended (if you really like this one, go back for art of improvisers...representative of his Atlantic Records output, but not as exceptional as Change of the Century, or Shape of Jazz to Come, for inst.)
Miles' Black Beauty is HEAVY. Includes some electric funk, infinitely better ensemble playing than Miles at Filmore (the one it gets compared to). Marred a little by unbalanced mix of instruments at times, but definitely sounds like nothing else.
Mingus Oh Yeah. Fantastic. Mingus plays piano on this instead of bass. Lots of barrelhouse piano and shouting. Roland Kirk is also all over it...
Impulse years comps are usually great, if they include guys like Shepp, Tolliver, Tyner...it was an impulse comp that introduced me to Archie Shepp and then to indispensable records like Four for Trane and Fire Music...
― Sanford, Monday, 31 January 2011 16:27 (thirteen years ago) link
Thanks, those all sound great!
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 16:50 (thirteen years ago) link
John Coltrane & Don Cherry - The Avant-Garde- this one has always been a little disappointing to me, even tho i love both coltrane and cherry.
― tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 16:52 (thirteen years ago) link
How so?
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:11 (thirteen years ago) link
Derek Bailey - Ballads
^ after years of playing free improv, Bailey went back and revisited some jazz standards, so this isn't exactly typical DB, but it is a really good record and maybe a good way into his whole thing.
― seminal fuiud (NickB), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:16 (thirteen years ago) link
Joe Henderson - Big Band
really really really great record
but i'm a total joe henderson stan and have japanese bootlegs and stuff so
― HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:17 (thirteen years ago) link
xpost eh, just doesn't sound very inspired. most of it (all of it?) is made up of ornette compositions, and coltrane doesn't sound very comfortable/sure of himself. not a lot of fireworks betw. the players. more of an interesting experiment than a real success. if you're looking for good stuff from the atlantic era, Ole is a much better bet.
― tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 17:18 (thirteen years ago) link
Is that Joe Henderson record actually a big band thing? Usually the words "big band" mean "run for the hills" in my world... but maybe I shouldn't be so hasty.
― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:21 (thirteen years ago) link
Duke Ellington had a big band y'know. so did Count Basie.
― ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:30 (thirteen years ago) link
(no one ever talks about Count Basie anymore, it's kinda sad)