Rolling 2011 thread where I buy and listen to jazz albums for the first time ever

Like when I saw them live I remember doing "Everybody Wants to Rule the World" and at first it just kind of sounded like a transcription of the original for jazz instruments, and then when they would throw in little dissonances and off-kilter things they seemed like very predictable off-kilter things.

remember THEM doing

that comparison doesn't make sense to me, like, at all?

to me the bad plus do a pretty amazing job of combining a lot of things that could have been a mess - melody vs atonality, really precise rhythmic stuff vs free playing, respect for jazz vs a really sincere embrace of rock and pop. imo people get hung up on a couple of their "covers", and don't really listen to what they're doing.

also dave king is one of the very best & most singular drummers of his generation, along with chris dave and brian blade.

I think Mehldau does most of what they do much better.

you mean the trio stuff?

I mean pretty much everything where he has done rock covers including with the trio.

First off, I don't dislike The Bad Plus or Vampire Weekend -- pleasant, but not really my thing.

well, they are educated, nice, non-black boys playing traditionally African-American music, for one. They are critically acclaimed by the educated white boy East Coast tastemakers. Their music fuses different elements, as you mentioned. It is well-crafted. It is tidy. But it takes music that was originally associated with a certain ecstatic quality, and make it kinda tidy and mannered. And there's a lot of race-based baggage/connotations in this that many contemporary white guys playing free jazz have to negotiate/come to terms with. And maybe we don't want to go there in this thread.

takes music that was originally associated with a certain ecstatic quality, and make it kinda tidy and mannered

ok sorry no

that's not gonna fly

well, they are educated, nice, non-black boys playing traditionally African-American music, for one.

fuck off with that shit

I mean you want to talk about racial baggage you just chalked yourself up a few extra check-in fees.

(xpost)

i mean i don't even know where to start

excuse me? I mean, if you want to ignore the racial aspects of jazz, go ahead, but they exist, and I'm sure you know, it's a long-standing issue.

Back to old-school jazz (let's not derail too far, please) -- anyone heard Jazz Advance, that Cecil Taylor album I posted abt upthread? Is it any good, or are there other records of his that I should look to?

Right, the racial aspects, e.g white people deciding that jazz is about "a certain ecstatic quality" that black people bring to the music and that stiff boring white people fail to get.

i'm not saying that I agree with that argument, I'm just pointing out that that argument exists.

God forbid someone bring a "tidy, mannered" quality to the music of, say, Duke Ellington.

but we're not talking about Duke Ellington -- Jordan was talking about how The Bad Plus incorporates improv and free jazz.

Please can we move on from this derail, guys?

(Or else take this convo somewhere else: Racial issues in music, perhaps?)

Re: Cecil Taylor, I don't know much of his stuff but Conquistador! is one of my favourite jazz records of all time. It is very much what I like about jazz, though, and your mileage might vary - not here will ye find any of that cool smooth tuneful shit.

I'm just trying to explain why some people, including my friend, dislike The Bad Plus. And it's kinda related to why some people dislike Vampire Weekend.

There is a lot of great playing on Zorn's jazz records, but I wouldn't necessarily put them ahead of any of the recommendations already on the thread. If you want one disc by the original Masada quartet, I'd say Hei, because "Hobah" is mindblowing to me. I'd put higher stock in a couple other 2CD sets that were recorded early on after Zorn wrote the first book of Masada pieces, when all the NY downtown players were just seeing the material for the first time and bringing everything they had to it. Bar Kokhba: Masada Chamber Ensembles is a hodgepodge of different lineups (string trio, piano trio, clarinet/organ, trumpet/clarinet/organ/drums, etc). The Circle Maker has one disc of string trio and one disc of the same trio plus drums, percussion and amazing guitar by Marc Ribot.

I don't care for VW and may check out The Bad Plus at some point. Doesn't strike me as a priority for now. Regardless, I'd just prefer we not derail into 100+ posts on racial issues in jazz. Another thread, perhaps...

xp to sarahel

And yes, I realize the irony of me asking other ILXors not to derail threads (my speciality, oftentimes).

Right, the racial aspects, e.g white people deciding that jazz is about "a certain ecstatic quality" that black people bring to the music and that stiff boring white people fail to get.

― hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, January 28, 2011 2:08 PM (6 minutes ago)

Exactly -- it's definitely problematic.

Zorn's film music is pretty good. The Cobra stuff is also worth listening to.

Zorn strikes me as perhaps needing a whole separate investigation. Pretty unwieldy catalog. May check him out at some point...

your friend's ideas about race & aesthetics here are all twisted up imo. i'd love to stay and argue that the bad plus are neither co-opting nor watering down whatever your friend's idea of what free jazz should be, but i'm out for the weekend.

xp

this used to be a good thread

Zorn strikes me as perhaps needing a whole separate investigation. Pretty unwieldy catalog. May check him out at some point...

yes, definitely worthy of investigation, but not necessarily as part of your jazz research. He's a lot like Frank Zappa -- a composer above all, arranging the works for different ensembles depending on their needs. (In FZ's case, he arranged his work mostly for midsize rock band because it paid the bills and gave him total freedom.) Speaking of FZ, have his jazz albums been mentioned here? There are three classics, four if you count Ponty's King Kong.

my friend is a white guy who came up listening to punk rock, then got into free jazz and improv and played with European EFI dudes as well as a lot of Bay Area African-American old school free jazz dudes. He does have some skewed ideas about jazz, but basically, he thinks The Bad Plus suck, and he's applying arguments to The Bad Plus that denigrate them and what they do, primarily because he thinks they suck. This seems very common on ILX.

And please do check out Archie Shepp. FIRE MUSIC!!
Yes! And "Four for Trane"

Seeing that you were moved by Ornette, don't forget to search out his later, electric sounds: Of Human Feelings, Body Meta, and Dancing In Your Head...(if you want to get ridiculous about the early stuff, Beauty Is A Rare Thing has all you need)

Some might cringe at the concept, but this is amazing:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000AMYJK0/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music

http://jazzbluesclub.com/2009/12/21/#

fair enough. have to admit i don't have much respect for free jazz dudes who haven't spent some time playing other kinds of jazz, paying dues.

Body Meta is great. And if Ornette rocks your world, it might be worth your while to check out Albert Ayler.

(fer christsakes)

James Carter/Cyrus Chestnut/Ali Jackson/Reginald Veal - Gold Sounds (tribute to Pavement)

xp Jordan: he played whatever Glenn Spearman asked him to play, because it was Glenn Spearman's band, and dude was a legend.

fwiw all the great jazz musicians i know in my generation (most of whom are primarily involved in non-jazz music these days) have a fraught relationship with jazz. but even the guys who are really dedicated to free music have done their homework and can play anything if necessary.

Even Derek Bailey put in his time on session work and dance bands and whatnot.

http://sickmouthy.wordpress.com/2011/01/16/top-ten-jazz-albums

I suspect my taste in jazz doesn't intersect massively with many other people on ILM. But we have lots if crossover in other areas so maybe you'll get some mileage from this.

Also, Courtney Pine's Modern Day Jazz Stories and e.s.t's Tuesday Wonderland. Love both of those deeply.

So...what "Jazz" albums are totally right now, like a live album, especially for someone who never really cared about jazz and wants to make up for lost time? I mean, it's Friday night, no better time for some live jazz!

Black Saint and Sinner Lady is a great album.

My dad's a big Cannonball Adderley fan.

Freak In by Dave Douglas, too.

The Impressed with Giles Peterson compilations are awesome collections of 60s British stuff. Michael Garrick etc. Awesome.

So...what "Jazz" albums are totally right now, like a live album, especially for someone who never really cared about jazz and wants to make up for lost time? I mean, it's Friday night, no better time for some live jazz!

maybe just watch chris dave trio videos on youtube?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T39ZaFT1kA0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ5eduwP-4U

Hmm, in terms of contemporary stuff, there are a lot of good players right now constantly walking the in/out line as I think I've talked about with Jordan. Some names I recommend checking out: Tony Malaby's Tamarindo, Drew Gress, Yeah No, stuff involving Chris Lightcap on bass and Gerald Cleaver on drums (including Chris Lightcap's records as a leader), Chad Taylor's Active Ingredients. Actually you might dig the Chicago Underground Trio and Quartet records since they have some noisy/proggy/spacey electronic elements that sort of bleed into other Chicago stuff a little (they share members with Isotope 217/Tortoise)

Actually I'd really recommend starting off with anything that has both William Parker and Hamid Drake on upright bass and drum kit, respectively (though I love the stuff where they play other instruments). They're definitely a key force in the last few decades of jazz and the direction it has taken, and relatively accessible because they're so rhythm-heavy.

Any of the Brad Mehldau Trio at the Vanugard recordings are great, intense and heady listens.

And if Ornette rocks your world, it might be worth your while to check out Albert Ayler.

Good call! I actually saw the Ayler box set on Revenant a few months ago and reaaaaally wanted to pick it up (it was still $80 or so, and I passed). That was one of the aching non-purchases I almost made that's made me feel it's time to try my hand with jazz.

That, and everyone posting on Facebook about their favorite jazz albums... ^_^

Saw an Ayler album tonight: New Grass -- how is it?

Haven't heard New Grass, but the Allmusic writeup intrigues me:

Possibly the most notorious Albert Ayler release and universally misunderstood (i.e., hated) by fans and critics alike. When New Grass was released in 1968 it received a hostile outcry of "sell-out."

The idea of Ayler aiming his uncompromising full-body style into commercial territory suggests a glorious incongruity. Doesn't sound like the best introduction to the man though. I'll rep for Live at the Village Vanguard forever, though I guess Spiritual Unity is his recognised classic album.

Don't go for New Grass as an introduction to Ayler. To hear his early style at its best, get Spiritual Unity. To hear his late style at its best, get Live on the Riviera or Fondation Maeght Nights.