That's it! The only ism I want to come out of your mouths is jism. Overacademic Bullshit Must Die.

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I have almost no idea what this thread was about. Should this bother me?

sundar subramanian (sundar), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 20:11 (twenty years ago) link

(*insert obligatory "can't we all get along" type post*)

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 20:16 (twenty years ago) link

Sundar is turning into The Pinefox. I find this more fascinating than discussing the merits of music criticism.

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 20:17 (twenty years ago) link

it isn't like I'm saying the world would be a better place if Miccio had been stabbed to death (for example)

Yeah, but would you yell at him from a car? I would!

Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 20:25 (twenty years ago) link

It would be funny if someone was Pinefoxian on this board about Indian classical music instead of British indie pop.

sundar subramanian (sundar), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 20:38 (twenty years ago) link

Isn't this whole argument just the usual, people who can write vs. people who can't write? That's what I understand by the "academic" term.

When you read stuff at college, you sometimes get bright text full of ideas and well written. More of the time though, you get some small ideas appallingly written. Very frequently, it's worse: cliche rewritten as gibberish.

So, it's natural to distrust stuff that seems "academic".

Most people, especially here, can take a bit of braininess.

Some people, especially here, can detect faux-braininess, yes?

Without any examples (and I didn't spot any as I skim-read), this thread gets nowhere. That's where it is. Where is the end?

Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 21:33 (twenty years ago) link

hey Ally, please feel free to put more words in my mouth (or macaroni, pizza, tongues, what have you). You've been totally OTM and are expressing my opinion much better than I have been. Thanks.

People tend to yell Miccioooooo from cars at me, so ya know. And I'd think right now it would neither positively or negatively affect the world much if I got trampled to death at a Bizkit concert. Plus there's always my legacy to worry about...

The End Is The Beginning Is The The End

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 21:40 (twenty years ago) link

Miccio don't be afraid.

amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 21 May 2003 21:46 (twenty years ago) link

I tossed a response into this thread some ways back - in general, if I can go on a bit more in the attempt to explain the sort of happy medium I (personally) appreciate - I am not in the least against the use of/doing of/application of theory to the analysis of any subject at hand, including music.
I do think the writer has some responsibility to explain - comprehensibly and clearly - why he/she chooses to use a particular theoretical approach. I've been frustrated by having to read a lot of academic articles where the writer is just following an equation like "subject A + theory B" without including a "so what," a conclusion, a reason why this gives more insight into the subject. I'm also frustrated by a lot of dry, indecipherable theoretical writing; there is a ton of it and, speaking as a student, I have encountered plenty of terrific, engaging theory-driven criticism - but also plenty that gives you very little in exchange for the energy you devote to understanding it.
I meant what I said about Deleuze though! It was flip, intentionally, but meant to be affectionate too; I really admire and enjoy Deleuze and I am just beginning to grasp ways to use his work that don't involve just dropping a few buzzwords into an unrelated argument.
Sterling, though I don't know what you were trying to say to me - I admit that one snarky post deserves another! - I do want to read what you wrote on Bakhtin and Jay-Z, I can't intuitively figure out the connection and I'm curious: is it something to do with dialogism and the multiplicity of voices in a specific genre? Or is it equally applicable to, say, two people singing different things at once in Sleater-Kinney?

daria g, Wednesday, 21 May 2003 21:50 (twenty years ago) link


Du
...
Du Hast
...
Du Hast Miccio

Sorry. I couldn't resist.

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 22 May 2003 00:54 (twenty years ago) link

Are you campaigning for Most Oblique Poster?

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 22 May 2003 00:57 (twenty years ago) link

I'll say. Does that mean you burn me or you hate me? Or that I'm a big badass teutonic fucka with flame coming out of my ass?

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 22 May 2003 01:01 (twenty years ago) link

Thats you (as narrator) decrying that people are hating you.
The english would be
You
You Hate
You Hate (whatever the German equivalent of Miccio is)

Actually, in this context it means nothing. Its a pun that has to be said out loud to make any sense. (Although the reader would have to assume your last name is pronounced Mish-EE-OH.)

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 22 May 2003 01:04 (twenty years ago) link

Are you campaigning for Most Oblique Poster?
Well, not overtly campaigning, no.
I'm hoping for a groundswell of grassroots write-in votes.

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 22 May 2003 01:05 (twenty years ago) link

MITCH-e-o is my personal preference.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 22 May 2003 01:06 (twenty years ago) link

but I plan to steal the concept next time I say something silly and the middlebrows start getting defensive.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 22 May 2003 01:07 (twenty years ago) link

Okay here's my gripe w/hyper-analytical, 'over-academic' discussion of music. I've heard many people say how these are the best, most worthwhile threads. Perhaps. I'm not going to make the argument that any other threads are more valuable than these.
But what exactly is being accomplished by them or any other analysis? What does music as a whole gain from academic analysis? In almost every other discipline, including other art forms, new, innovative art has arisen from debate w/in its community. What has music analysis, or criticism for that matter, contributed to music? I'm not talking about what it does for you, but what effect it has on the creation of music.

oops (Oops), Thursday, 22 May 2003 01:23 (twenty years ago) link

Saint Ettiene.

Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 22 May 2003 01:25 (twenty years ago) link

But what exactly is being accomplished by them or any other analysis? What does music as a whole gain from academic analysis? In almost every other discipline, including other art forms, new, innovative art has arisen from debate w/in its community. What has music analysis, or criticism for that matter, contributed to music?
(*cue knee-jerk answer involving the phrase "dancing about architecture.")*

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 22 May 2003 01:28 (twenty years ago) link

Okay. One of the really really useful concepts to come out of Gramsci is his idea of an "organic intellectual" which essentially argues that intellectuals aren't like a special group of people unto themselves, but are special groups within/tied to particular classes. Genovese uses this well when arguing why its important to study the "theorists" (i.e. philosophers/religious scholars/men of letters) of the southern slavocracy -- coz they tried to give complete and rounded exposition to the worldviews of difft. types of the general population whether or not everything they wrote went *whooosh* over the heads of the general population.

Now why does this matter? Coz to me often "theorists" and rock musicians are often finding different ways of addressing the *same thing* and so often indirectly addressing one another. One way to kill the self-satisfied patrician role of academia is to actually try to bring it into *dialogue* with the things it addresses.

One of the more thought-provoking/useful things about Meltzer was that for him philosophy was the question and ROCK!!!! was the answer. Hendrix's famous logical connective "A public hair B" etc. But that's really just a varient of left-hegelianism. (which is another reason knowing theory is good, because it helps you spot old debates in new clothes).

Another problem is that sometimes cryptic references are meant as jokes and not as k-brill. insights. So plenty of times there's no *point* in explaining them if someone doesn't get them because the explanation kills the humor and without the humor there's nothing left. I know I do this IRL fairly often, but mainly w/r/t pop-ephermia from the 80s or early 90s as opposed to with highfalutin' theorists.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 22 May 2003 03:23 (twenty years ago) link

Case in point.

jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 22 May 2003 03:26 (twenty years ago) link

I only understood Meltzer when he was putting safety pins on his daddy's benz (or was that Metal Mike?)

Kris (aqueduct), Thursday, 22 May 2003 03:31 (twenty years ago) link

So the only thing that results from analysis is concepts? Concepts which are to be further analyzed? I WANT RESULTS!

oops (Oops), Thursday, 22 May 2003 03:33 (twenty years ago) link

forgot to put 'TANGIBLE' in there

oops (Oops), Thursday, 22 May 2003 03:36 (twenty years ago) link

what if it doesn't result in better music but simply a better audience?

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 22 May 2003 03:44 (twenty years ago) link

better? better than what?

oops (Oops), Thursday, 22 May 2003 03:53 (twenty years ago) link

I WANT RESULTS!

Pick up an instrument.

Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:05 (twenty years ago) link

Um, my drums are sort of heavy.

oops (Oops), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:06 (twenty years ago) link

better than before.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:09 (twenty years ago) link

knowledge is power dumbasses

jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:11 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah, well, yo' mamma.

Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:13 (twenty years ago) link

yes, tribal people from thousands of years ago were terrible audiences. And the music then? sucked balls. Thank you music criticism!

(jess, thank you for omitting that comma)

oops (Oops), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:13 (twenty years ago) link

Haha "A pubic hair B", I forgot about that one. Man, Meltzer kicks the shit out of everyone.

I seriously don't even know why people bother writing about rock in his wake. Kogan's stuff (like that Disco Tex essay) comes pretty close, tho.

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:21 (twenty years ago) link

you didn't have audiences thousands of years ago, at least not among "tribal people" and this was in part becuz music served a difft. social role.

oh shit, did i just use "theory" again!? sorry.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:26 (twenty years ago) link

It's late, and I'm tired, so maybe that explains why I can't read this whole thread. And don't think me un-academic -- Sterling's posts are the ones I did read. There seems to be some argument over the purpose of criticism. I see it like this, and I try not to think about it much past this, because if I do I get bogged down in these types of discussions:

Criticism is public service, but it's not office work. Its ultimate purpose is to communicate to others about music and the culture surrounding it, but not dryly or obviously. It's journalism, but it's meta-journalism. It is aware of itself. It exists to inform and elucidate, but also to entertain. Whether it's bullshit or not is purely subjective, and whether it's academic or not depends on the kind of writer you are, and the audience you want to reach. Taking an academic approach to writing about music is not the same thing as being an academic -- music, after all, is not an academic exercise in and of itself, or at least it shouldn't be. Sounds are not ideas, they are sounds. Music writers are exactly the kinds of organic intellectuals that Sterling mentioned (I really like that concept, BTW). They work from a base of that which is un-intellectual and attempt to put it in broader context, which is an intellectual activity. This activity contains an inner conflict, but a mild one, to my thinking. If Walt Whitman can intellectualize a blade of grass, why can't I intellectualize a guitar?

I understand all this very clearly, and I accept it, and I don't think it an act of stubbornness to refuse to discuss it further. There are layers here, and contradictions, but no more than in my own personality. The true measure of an intellectual is the ability to deal with contradictions.

Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:32 (twenty years ago) link

and knowing is half the battle

jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:36 (twenty years ago) link

yes, but you can know something without knowing it. like when you know a record is good.

Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:38 (twenty years ago) link

don't ask me, i can only parrot what i learned from g.i. joe

jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:40 (twenty years ago) link

You have to be an intellectual in order to deal w/contradictions?
I'd argue that you did have audiences back then, THEY just functioned differently. But forget thousands of years ago, how 'bout hundreds of years ago? How bout the present time? There are whole music cultures that exist outside of music criticism, ie they don't read it and are not written about. Is the music they produce and the audience that listens to it not as 'good' as other more cosmopolitan and self-aware musics and audiences?
Better is a terrible term to use here.

oops (Oops), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:41 (twenty years ago) link

You have to be an intellectual in order to deal w/contradictions?

I didn't say that. A useful intellectual is able to get down in the pit of contradiction with everybody else.

Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:44 (twenty years ago) link

Jess is right, knowledge is power, it's also sexy. And cute adjectives and turns of phrase are no substitute for ideas. Meltzer's writing is bubbling with ideas and yeah he was arrogant about it, needlessly probably, but so what, it doesn't bother me. Because he was smart enough to get away with it. His writing excites the imagination, it forces you to be creative yourself, it does the music justice.

I mean there is just reams and reams of writing about music around, and it's staggering how bad most of it is, how uncool, unsexy most of it is. Meltzer was able to wed theory and his his own whacked concepts to rock music in his writing, in a way that seemed wholly inside, of the music. And he did all this at the beginning! WHen there was no codified "rock criticism", when there were no banal "literary critism" majors running around American campuses. So much of the writing around seems so pointless, so lacking in imagination, I don't even think the writers know why they do it. And we're fucking swimming in it! It's everywhere!

But just as words aren't substitutes for ideas, dropping the names of famous theorists is no substitute for using their ideas in interesting ways. I like Sterling's writing a lot, but that Ja Rule clip was just silly name-dropping; I mean it has nothing to do with any sort of Gramscian concept of hegemony at all, it was just gratuitous. But at the same time, at this point Sterling or any other writer shouldn't have to gloss Gramsci's ideas in the course of invoking him. He's, uh, a pretty well-established theorist. The Genovese reference, however, probably should have been prefaced by something like "In his important text Wages of Whiteness, the African-AMerican historian," (or whatever, was it WoW? I read him like 10 years ago but I hardly think that's the type of name that can just be gracefully dropped without explication)

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:51 (twenty years ago) link

yes oops you nailed me. my wild crazy assumption that "communication = good" is actually part of the evil western plot to denigrate every other culture and country in the world because there's nothing people who like popmusicwrite hate more than the evil barbaric savages of africa.

oh and Diamond -- it *totally* had to do with Gramsci -- the point being that the "universal" h8 of Ja and his popularity go hand in hand -- the consentual relations to his music cloaked as disdain for his "sellout" persona were the key to the article.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:57 (twenty years ago) link

well then what the fuck did you mean?

oops (Oops), Thursday, 22 May 2003 05:01 (twenty years ago) link

and who the fuck mentioned Africa?

oops (Oops), Thursday, 22 May 2003 05:06 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah, I should not have said it had nothing to do with Gramsci; just that Gramsci had bigger fish to fry. I mean I think he'd roll over in his grave to know that his legacy was to be employed in critique of the internal dynamics of the pop charts.

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 22 May 2003 05:07 (twenty years ago) link

okay oops. why *should* rockwrite contribute to music? there's a real and very important other and much more academic and rigorous field which contributes a great deal to music already -- its called "market research." Baysian statistics and digital signal processing probably had more to do with the current musical climate than Meltzer did.

But if you think people thinking about, talking about, trying to understand the music they listen to is a *good* think -- and I can't imagine you don't -- then it seems pretty obv. that bringing all tools possible to bear in this is also a good thing.

I mean you're the one making the absurd assumption that not using big words = not thinking and talking and trying to understand.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 22 May 2003 05:26 (twenty years ago) link

Nope. Never made that assumption.
Maybe it shouldn't contribute to music. But if that's the case, it seems pretty useless: It's function would be to produce more thought, which leads to more criticism, which leads.... The definition of mental masturbation. Which is all fine and dandy, I just don't like it being regarded as some lofty thing on a hill, something we should all aim for, something 'better'.

oops (Oops), Thursday, 22 May 2003 05:43 (twenty years ago) link

it does contribute to music: ppl read it and go off and make difft music

proof: the entire history of all music ever

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 22 May 2003 08:26 (twenty years ago) link

pps why didn't you contribute to my "if ppl don't write about music, does that music matter?" thread, oops

(i forgot its actual title)

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 22 May 2003 08:27 (twenty years ago) link

Oops, Sterling's point earlier about criticism creating "better audiences" is key. Maybe that's an oblique way of saying it -- but to give a very simple example: Last night, I was reading through some of Matos' writing on his site and happened upon a bit where he proclaimed Sugar's "Gee Angel" the most monstrous rock single of the 90's this side of "Smells Like Teen Spirit." So I dug out the single, which I hadn't listened to in at least six years, and played it. I'd be lying if I said it blew me away, but Matos got me to appreciate the song all over again. This was just an off-handed reference, so imagine what a more in-depth critique could have accomplished.

But I'll also admit that a good portion of my love for popular music has to do with a fascination and excitement about its history, and the fact that its history is constantly being written and re-written. And so listening to that Sugar song made me simultaneously think "Wow, that riff is classic! I really want to dance now!" and also "Does this mean Sugar is underrated? If so, how come? Did they suffer from not being Husker Du? Is a singer's second band always considered inferior to their first band? etc. etc." I don't think that everyone is as captivated by that aspect of music as I am, and if you're not, then perhaps criticism doesn't seem as interesting.

jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 22 May 2003 14:43 (twenty years ago) link


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