Has The NME Got Good?

Geir, you weren't talking about charts you said this

Mind you, UK indie was largely nonexistant in the late 80s/early 90s. OK, so it existed, but it was very much underground

And because you were proved wrong you have tried to move the goalposts.

Geir will never ever admit he's wrong, surely you all know this by now?

The list of hip-hop covers is a bit misleading, cos it suggests every other cover was indie. Look instead at how few covers were indie during 1986, the year indie became associated with jangling guitars and the highwatermark year of the definitive NME indie band, the Smiths:

Also here's the NME's Top 20 albums from the same year, a fairly varied list:

1. Parade - Prince & The Revolution
2. Rapture - Anita Baker
3. Control - Janet Jackson
4. Evol - Sonic Youth
5. Word Up - Cameo
6. Graceland - Paul Simon
7. Bend Sinister - The Fall
8. Rasin' Hell - Run-DMC
9. The Queen Is Dead - The Smiths
10. The Album - Mantronix
11. Nelson Mandela - Youssou N'dour
12. Life's Rich Pageant - R.E.M.
13. Blood And Chocolate - Elvis Costello
14. King Of America - Elvis Costello
15. Your Funeral... My Trial - Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds
16. Schoolly D - Schoolly D
17. Rough & Rugged - Shinehead
18. Tutu - Miles Davis
19. Say What! - Trouble Funk
20. Liberty Belle & The Black Diamond Express - The Go-Betweens

I mean I only started reading the NME in 1995 when it was pretty much regarded as an indie magazine by everyone I knew but I realised this can't always have been the case (most obviously because it'd been around far longer than indie music had).

I think cover artists are important in identifying who they were trying to sell to (see 55 x Oasis and more than 20 x Stone Roses even years after they split).

That's true. But through the mid-80s they were trying to sell an awful lot more than just indie. That list of 86 covers has only five by acts of the kind codified as "indie music"- Easterhouse, Lemon Drops, Morrissey, Mary Chain, Shop Assistants. You could add to that Test Dept, Sonic Youth, the Cramps and Billy Bragg - but that's still less than a fifth of the year's covers, which is astounding by the standards of the past 20 years.

NME's top albums of the 80s pretty much ignores 1986 - much more of an indie/post-punk slant.

1. The Stone Roses - The Stone Roses ‘89
2. The Queen Is Dead - The Smiths ‘85
3. Three Feet High And Rising - De La Soul ‘89
4. Sign ‘O’ The Times - Prince ‘87
5. It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back - Public Enemy ‘88
6. Psychocandy - Jesus And Mary Chain ‘85
7. Hatful Of Hollow - The Smiths ‘84
8. Closer - Joy Division ‘80
9. Sound Affects - The Jam ‘80
10. Low-Life - New Order ‘85
11. Remain In Light - Talking Heads ‘80
12. Searching For The Young Soul Rebels - Dexy’s Midnight Runners ‘80
13. Bummed - Happy Mondays ‘89
14. Surfer Rosa - Pixies ‘88
15. The Lexicon Of Love - ABC ‘82
16. Swordfishtrombones - Tom Waits ‘83
17. Kilimanjaro - The Teardrop Explodes ‘80
18. Dare - The Human League ‘81
19. Parade - Prince ‘86
20. 16 Lovers Lane - The Go-Betweens ‘88
21. Rain Dogs - Tom Waits ‘85
22. This Nation’s Saving Grace - The Fall ‘85
23. Rum, Sodomy And The Lash - The Pogues ‘85
24. The Smiths - The Smiths ‘84
25. Blood & Chocolate - Elvis Costello ‘86
26. Don’t Stand Me Down - Dexy’s Midnight Runners ‘85
27. The Eight Legged Groove Machine - The Wonder Stuff ‘88
28. Crocodiles - Echo And The Bunnymen ‘80
29. Nebraska - Bruce Springsteen ‘82
30. The Nightfly - Donald Fagen ‘82
31. Talking With The Taxman About Poetry - Billy Bragg ‘86
32. Miss America - Mary Margaret O’Hara ‘88
33. Rattlesnakes - Lloyd Cole & The Commotions ‘84
34. George Best - The Wedding Present ‘87
35. Atomiser - Big Black ‘87
36. My Life In The Bush Of Ghosts - David Byrne & Brian Eno ‘81
37. Sister - Sonic Youth ‘87
38. Straight Out Of The Jungle - The Jungle Brothers ‘88
39. Heaven Up Here - Echo And The Bunnymen ‘81
40. Green - REM ‘88
41. Imperial Bedroom - Elvis Costello ‘82
42. You Can’t Hide Your Love Forever - Orange Juice ‘82
43. Midnight Love - Marvin Gaye ‘82
44. Like A Prayer - Madonna ‘89
45. Beautiful Vision - Van Morrison ‘82
46. Infected - The The ‘86
47. Meat Is Murder - The Smiths ‘85
48. New York - Lou Reed ‘89
49. Yo! Bum Rush The Show - Public Enemy ‘87
50. Warehouse: Songs And Stories - Husker Du ‘87

from http://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/607080.html

I mean I only started reading the NME in 1995 when it was pretty much regarded as an indie magazine by everyone I knew but I realised this can't always have been the case (most obviously because it'd been around far longer than indie music had).

I'd argue it has had a "punk" edge to its general writing policy since, well, since punk. Which has also naturally caused it to be very pro-indie, since indie has basically the same roots as punk.

NME's top albums of the 80s pretty much ignores 1986

While I personally consider 1986 to have been a good music vintage (IMO it got much, much worse later in the decade), it can be argued that 1986 was sort of a no-man's-land between two phases in the 80s. The new romantics/synthpop age was pretty much coming to and end. Surely, you had Pet Shop Boys and Erasure and a-ha who were building on the heritage from that era but the arrival of sampling and FM synths meant that they still sounded very different from what the new romantic/synth bands in the early 80s had sounded like. And many of the biggest new romantic/synth names struggled commercially in 1986 compared to earlier (Human League did sort of a comeback, but with a single that was closer to R&B than synthpop).

On the other hand, hip-hop and hair metal, save for the occasional appearance in the charts (Run DMC, Europe, Bon Jovi) were still largely US phenomenons while house music had still to cross over from the Chicago club scene. So the dominant trends of the late 80s had yet to really settle.

So it is no wonder that 1986 may fall outside what is usually considered "representative" of the 80s, and as such, maybe no wonder it performs badly. Surprised not to see "Graceland" in there though.

("The Queen Is Dead" is 1986 not 1985 though)

20. 16 Lovers Lane - The Go-Betweens ‘88

interesting, i was wondering what kind of alltime lists go-betweens, felt & "the marble index" -- three acts singled out as not obscure upthread -- appeared on.

I want to see Geir interviewed by Paxman.

Tho even paxman would get fed up after 2 hours of geir refusing to admit what he said was wrong.

Anybody know what happened to these plans?
http://www.timewarner.com/corp/newsroom/pr/0,20812,1553295,00.html

much as I despise the brit-edition of the mag (incessant covers for oasis) I'd love for this to happen. Rolling Stone and Spin are the worst magazines in existence.

I'd assume pitchfork has made sure it wont happen.

Surprised NME haven't tried to develop their website into a UK equivalent tbh. I cant see the mag surviving more than another few years, but maybe it would be too late. Then again, outside of ilx, I'm not sure many in the UK care or even know about pitchfork at least compared to the NME.

I'd argue it has had a "punk" edge to its general writing policy since, well, since punk. Which has also naturally caused it to be very pro-indie, since indie has basically the same roots as punk.

Sure, that makes sense but there was that time in the mid '80s with a big indie/soul divide in the writers - no idea how big either faction was but I guess there was a chance the magazine could have gone the other way (I could be wrong but supposedly it was Steve Sutherland becoming editor that led to indie winning out)?

The mid 80s was around the time when soul music was finally starting to come out of the "disco" stigma that caused all indie fans (and rock fans in general) to hate it. In the early 80s there was very much this soul=disco thing, which meant that soul music wasn't taken seriously (which, of course, disco never was)

can you point out some examples of the punk edge in features from the last eight years?

Geir when did you first start reading NME?

Geir when did you first start reading NME?

I have never been a permanent reader (besides the now defunct Select, Q and Mojo have been my favourite mags), but have been reading some NME editions since the 80s.

can you point out some examples of the punk edge in features from the last eight years?

The punk edge is in preferring indie, which follows from punk.

Do you realise you're using your original assertion as your only citation of evidence, there?

I hope we've all learned something today

So, inverting the logic, you prefer punk because it presaged and pre-defined indie?

I prefer classic, melodic pop, which has more in common with indie than with most other genres that were really popular in the 90s. But I still prefer classic, melodic pop to indie.

The punk edge is in preferring indie, which follows from punk.

surely indie follows from earlier indie labels, like Motown, amirite

Indie in this case does not mean "independent". PWL was also independent. Indie is a musical genre, founded especially in the 80s as a protest against the synth dominated pop music of the time, but also rooted in punk.

Yeah, the protest was lead by Daniel Miller and Thomas Leer...

Indie was not formed as a protest against anything. It really did mean independent. It was only the rise of labels like PWL "contaminating" the indie chart that made people start writing "what does Indie mean?" articles and start to (re)define it as a genre that could ignore Kylie and all those other nasty manufactured pop acts.

New Order were a protest against synth music, stop being dumb guys.

I think you'll find New Order was a synth based pop protest against moody post punk like Joy Division.

Actually, many of those who hated seeing Kylie Minogue in the indie charts were not too pleased with seeing Erasure up there either. They hated synth based music with a passion.

Projectin'

If only they could have turned back the clock to the time when Depeche Mode used to be number one.

I don't know a single indie fan that even likes Kraftwerk.

You know me? I'm not single tho.

Stop trying to undermine this rock-solid theory on which Geir is building his mad castle.

There should be a band called The Disco Stigma.

Geir's history of indie:
In 1977 punk gave us The Police and the Boomtown Rats. The Police were new wave until Every Breath You Take. After the Police split up, all the indies fled underground, never showing their faces again. Although the Smiths and many other indie bands were very popular, that didn't count, because none of them had No 1 singles. And then Blur and Oasis found all the indies underground and led them back to the light in 1995.

Is that right, Geir?

You forgot the bit about the PWL ringwraiths riding through the shires on their flying synths.

And, I mean, basically the argument style and posting style on his ILM work is the same as on the alt.music work, even though there is less overt racism and the drums and bass are hardly mentioned . There was a certain Beatles-factor to his posts that was thankfully lost somewhere around "2001" but he has never really found a way to stop having the same fucking conversations for the past 20 years.

Harold and Kumar Go To Geir's Mad Castle

Geir's history of indie:
In 1977 punk gave us The Police and the Boomtown Rats. The Police were new wave until Every Breath You Take. After the Police split up, all the indies fled underground, never showing their faces again. Although the Smiths and many other indie bands were very popular, that didn't count, because none of them had No 1 singles. And then Blur and Oasis found all the indies underground and led them back to the light in 1995.

Is that right, Geir?

Indie existed in the meantime as well, but it was a very narrow genre with a somewhat narrow following, so the NME had to have a broader musical scope if they were to survive.

Point being, Indie singles sold loads, they didn't chart highly because a lot of the sales weren't in chart return shops.

Anyway, basically, the main reason why the likes of The Smiths, R.E.M. and Waterboys got popular in the 80s, not with the masses but with a certain kind of audience, is they were guitar fundamentalists. They were known as "guitar bands", and were popular with people who hated how the synth had become the most important instrument in pop music.

X-Post: Very doubtful. Indie in the 80s subscribed to a certain low-fi thinking that made it unable to appeal to the masses. I think that was also a key element in bringing Britpop to the top of the charts, that the Britpop acts actually found production values to be important, as opposed to late 80s indie acts.

much as I despise the brit-edition of the mag (incessant covers for oasis)

Oasis have broken up and are thus now more likely to end up on the cover of Mojo than the cover of NME.

We'll see.

Yeah, I write for NME and I don't mind confirming that Geir is unfortunately wrong on this count. Oasis were on the cover at least twice last year.

Surely now they're split up, they wont be anymore as Beady Eye & Noel will get their own covers? (until they inevitably reform for a massive amount of money)

Brother getting a NME cover is unbelievably LOL.

Also LOL is someone using a false name to write criticism of them on The Quietus... presumably they're an NME staffer who doesn't want to get in trouble?