Kanye West - Dark Twisted Fantasy

its mystifying to me how we can still be going over this stuff.

haha i'm just busting your chops with the dated thing man

fair enuff. i retract my insults & swear words

the albums that weren't on that 50 were all pretty shitty. the list is basically "these are all the albums i listened to a lot and enjoyed at least a couple songs on," an overview of the year, not "run out and buy every single one of these." most albums have serious flaws that hold them back from reaching their potential greatness, sometimes i like the flaws, sometimes i don't.

i've put a lot of big divisive rap records that i didn't especially love (Carter 3, American Gangster, etc.) somewhere in the middle of my year-end lists out of respect to the songs on them that i did enjoy. didn't have 808s on a EOY list because the singing was so irritating to me that i couldn't stand to listen to the whole thing more than once, but on some objective level i think it's a better album than MBDTF or at least respect it more.

the albums that weren't on that 50 were all pretty shitty. [...] most albums have serious flaws that hold them back from reaching their potential greatness, sometimes i like the flaws, sometimes i don't.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_nQegovTjsHo/TLbx6Dfj2rI/AAAAAAAAABU/mQOQUj1QY_U/s1600/glass.jpg

the mbdtf vs 808s thing is interesting to me that way. im not really sure which i like more. i guess i find it easier to put up w/ the criticisms of that record than i do the praise for this one, but id rather listen to monster than anything on 808s

The actual-publications-rather-than-just-this-corner-of-ILX (and, by extension, Lex in the Guardian) backlash begins

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/music_blog/2011/01/and-now-begin-the-kanye-west-critical-walkbacks.html

lol @ their being shocked that anyone could argue diddy/dirty money's album is better than kanye's. i think most people on ilx have been saying that for the whole past month. when i put it on tumblr i was pleasantly surprised at how many people agreed. anyone who's kneejerk shocked by the idea, having not heard last train to paris, comes across as fairly dumb.

the ta-nehisi coates article is excellent obv, but it's not like it's the first outlet to note kanye's...odd relationship with white culture: this is where i first saw that idea explored http://clutchmagonline.com/newsgossipinfo/is-kanye-west-obsessed-with-white-people/

to derail - anyone see Muppet remix of Monster on YouTube? Can't post from phone but it's hilarious!

that's a pretty lazy article xp

lol @ their being shocked that anyone could argue diddy/dirty money's album is better than kanye's. i think most people on ilx have been saying that for the whole past month.

But of course it's a shock – Diddy's been a laughing stock in the hip-hop and pop communities for years. Look at the comments in nabisco's article.

Reading that Coates article as being about Kanye's relationship with white culture and not about Kanye's relationship with women and black culture is to miss the entire point, IMO. Coates' entire point is that Kanye is using lazy black stereotypes to avoid saying anything real, making himself into the Undercover Brother of hip-hop (even explicitly so via the accompanying picture).

also this is outstandingly stupid and navel-gazing on a level that would make Kanye blush: His apology to Taylor Swift signified a certain racial deference, given that there was no Tweeted “sorry” also to Janet Jackson, the person who was supposed to be the center of attention at that year’s VMAs for her moving tribute to her deceased King of Pop brother — all of which was overshadowed by West’s antics.

wait which piece is that from??

The one Lex linked.

ok that's a really weird piece

The article lost me when it misused "it's" tbh.

I've gone back and read more of that article and it's more of a gigantic pile of garbage than I originally thought

Which brings us to his non-validation of black women, a trait that he unfortunately also shares with Ali, at least in the boxer's early years. Did Kanye ever allow Amber Rose to be seen as anything other than an accessory -- a golden-haired, golden-skinned "dime piece" to go with his gold neck piece? In 'Power' Ye says "Ma'fucka, we rollin'/with some light-skinned girls and some Kelly Rowlands/ In this white man's world, we the ones chosen." This lyric suggests that only women with near-white complexion are worth "rollin'" with, while only a specific darker complexioned woman -- one like Kelly Rowland -- is acceptable, and likely because of her connection to Beyonce.

That is not actually what that line suggests. That line suggests that they are rollin' with a bunch of black women of different complexions and you have to either have a massive, King Kong-sized chip on your shoulder or be massively stupid to think otherwise. The conclusion would make sense if Kanye had said "and a Kelly Rowland"; as it's stands, it's pretty clear he namechecked her because she is a well-known darker black woman and her last name rhymes with "rollin'" if you're kind of an idiot.

haven't read the article but does it mention why the "phoenix" on the album cover is white but in the Runaway video she isn't, cos if you're writing about kanye's race/women fixations that's probably interesting.

The article is more concerned about a white dude named Cassius Clay and his pernicious influence over Kanye than anything else.

The writer actually comes across crazier than Kanye tbh.

also dumb q but is it really "30 white bitches" because i just assumed "dirty" :/

Kanye asks RZA if he'd voice the hook—"Champagne wishes and 30 white bitches/You know the shit is, fuckin' ridic'lous"—and the Abbott steps into the booth and obliges, immediately transforming from sedate and stoned to amped and aggressive. It's enough to make us all chuckle on his first take; wrapped around those words, his thick and bizarre drawl just sounds so perfectly...RZA. But Kanye notices something off in the delivery, and he presses the intercom button to talk to RZA: "Um, fam, it's actually ‘thirty white bitches,' not ‘dirty white bitches.'" RZA laughs. "I'll do it again," he says, "but to be real, the way I be saying words, you ain't gon' be able to tell the difference."

lol

Fully Validated Kanye West Retires To Quiet Farm In Iowa
'I Got All The Approval I Needed,' Content Former Pop Star Says

http://www.theonion.com/articles/fully-validated-kanye-west-retires-to-quiet-farm-i,18724/

my mom said something was "fucking ridiculous" on gchat recently and I inadvertently read it in RZA's voice

As much as I think the five-star hoopla is absurd, kneejerk and relativist to a tragic extreme, I'll take more tracks from this than I would from Graduation or 808s

eh, Graduation i don't really ride for as a whole but it had its share of jams

i definitely had a fonder initial reaction to it, but in hindsight it feels really negligible aside from a few tracks, really victory lappy. Crazy Kanye has it's problems, but I might prefer it to Victory Lap Kanye.

haha didn't mean to say "victory lap" twice in there.

I liked how his thigh muscles looked in that victory lap.

The throwaway nature of Graduation is its most appealing quality, especially when he can' t help but be sonically ambitious when he's at his most innocuous lyrically.

I don't think he's ever going to make an album better than 808s, personally.

I'm just far too Alan Alda a guy for that album.

i guess i'm too Hot Lips to understand what you're talking about

he's saying he's too much of a wimpy sensitive douche to enjoy an album about the implosion of a cheating misogynist

NOTE: previous characterization may be purposefully incendiary

I wouldn't call sighing "life's not fair" an implosion

good thing there's more than one song on the album, then

which track would you describe as his implosion then?

...

you are smarter than this, at least I would like to think you are

The implosion is chronicled over multiple tracks on the album, starting with the pining-for-a-fantasy-love on on "Say You Will", continuing with the woe-is-me discounting of fame and success on "Welcome To Heartbreak", the bitter acrimony in "Heartless", the self-loathing in "Amazing", the lamentation of lost love in "Love Lockdown", the last-ditch manipulation attempt in "Paranoid", the bitter dismissals in "Robocop", the mournful beginnings of acceptance in "Street Lights", the wounded betrayal of "Bad News", the vituperative kiss-off of "See You In My Nightmares" and the desperate dwelling on the past and future in "Coldest Winter". The entire album is a set piece about the dissolution and deflation of someone who looks to be on top of the world but feels like he is on the bottom.

dude you wanna calm down on the invective? sorry i don't like the album!

I don't really see it as "dissolution and deflation" so much as sulking self-pity from a guy I don't feel much pity for. Dude lashes out at the girl repeatedly, then cries "i will never love again." He may feel like he's on the bottom, but I don't think he ever really pushes himself off his pedestal.

doesn't help that his poor-me metaphors are either painfully cliche or "robocop" ridiculous

oh god i'd forgotten about robocop

Sulking self-pity is often a clear sign of the dissolution and deflation of a massive ego, is the thing

Also, you have known me long enough to know that I am going to come down like a ton of bricks on any line of thought/reasoning/argument that even has faint hallmarks of not being thought out; saying "show me the one song where he falls apart" in response to a claim about the mood of an entire album is, at best, facile. If you don't like that, don't come at me with half-assed rhetoric.

I don't think it's a great catchphrase at all. If someone called me a Robocop as we were on the verge of breaking up that would be the dealbreaker

― let's get high off our own supply (The Brainwasher), Friday, February 13, 2009 9:51 PM (1 year ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^worth remembering about robocop because it means i remember this amazing post

Sulking self-pity is often a clear sign of the dissolution and deflation of a massive ego, is the thing

i think time has proven this wasn't what was happening with kanye

you've known anthony long enough that you should be more accepting of his insightful but often reductive quips! (xpost)

i think time has proven this wasn't what was happening with kanye

Kanye the person is not the album 808s and Heartbreaks.

I don't always advocate the "divorce the performer from the music" line of argument but I don't really have a problem doing it here, largely because I think I was maybe one of the few people around here who successfully avoided learning about the minutiae of Kanye's personal life and therefore had no baggage re: the dissolution of his real-life relationship influencing my digestion of the album.

btw, the first post was a total joke and I apologize if it was over the line

even if i didn't know he split up with his real long-suffering girlfriend, an album where the character passingly references his own cheating while shrieking about her own crimes before moaning about how cold it is now would still sound like douche central. I wouldn't buy his thrashing around before huffing "I will never love again" meant his ego had actually diminished, let alone dissolve.

let alone dissolved, I mean. Though my intent in comparing my stance to Alan Alda was to suck some of the piety out of it. I just find it unrewardingly unpleasant, which is a shame cuz a lot of tracks are musically appealing.