SWANS vs. SONIC YOUTH

If we make this a live poll, it's Swans by a ridiculous margin. And because of that, I pick Swans anyway. Bonus points for having a better sense of when to stop. Double bonus points for better deployment of arguably embarrasing female member. Triple bonus points because Skin/World of Skin is better than any Sonic Youth side project. And so on...

Over 30, but of course.

SY, easy. Basically just for the stretch from Bad Moon Rising on thru Sister (Daydream Nation and Goo are fine, too). I appreciate Swans and the sound itself is often spectacular, but I can't relate to Gira. His world-view is such an overwhelming part of the music - not limited to the lyrics - and it often seems silly to me. Undercuts the gravitas they're so obviously striving for.

Agree that SY had a briefer "worth listening to" era.

P.S. Anyone who won't admit the Swans' (perhaps unintentional) gothic aspects isn't really being honest about it. High drama, erotic negation of the self and the flesh, obsession with filth and purity, literary despair, S&M trappings, etc. Nothing wrong with that, mind.

plus deep vocals

Agree that SY had a briefer "worth listening to" era.

Have to disagree here. SY's "worth listening to" period is roughly 1986-2006.

time to find out who is over and who is under thirtyforty

Cop/Brave Men Run

It's a toughie. While I only really like Cop/Raping a slave era Swans, I love all eras of Sonic Youth so its SY for me I think.

BRAVE MEN RUUNNNN!

Sonic Youth is still gonna win this, because all the Sonic Youth fans who have never heard Swans (except for seeing Angels of Light live one time a few years ago) are going to mindlessly click Sonic Youth and then forget about this thread until the results are announced.

-- jaymc, Tuesday, November 27, 2007 2:45 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link

shut up

I like Swans, but there is no real contest. Sonic Youth is maybe the best band of the last 25 years.

Never really 'got' Sonic Youth, but Swans were a big part of my late teens/twenties

were you a goth?????

is it me or has steve shelley been a boring-ass drummer since goo? i'm just listening to murray street right now, man, the guitars are awesome. moore/renaldo are so confident in just about everything they're doing. but shelley is just boring, no interesting dynamics, nothing. this is sad because his work on the earlier stuff is incredible.

just listened to swans for the first time - i didnt realize it was a goth thing

People are so stupid.

We'll lie down in the warm green grass
And the sun will shine on our pale shape
Our blood will flow black in the dirt
And a black rose will grow where we laid

Never understood the appeal of Swans' monotonous, pointless music; Children of God may well be the most boring album I've ever heard. Over 40, btw.

xp

I think Steve's drumming has improved over the years; the last couple of SY albums may well feature his best work ever.

ppl w/ fish eyes n brown sox

Sonic Youth by a landslike and I have (mostly dubbed) copies of something like 5 Swans albums I haven't listened to in years. I'm frankly amazed at the number of people who find them more consistently listenable.

wasn't the swans/goth connection kind of settled on another swans thread?

ah yes. just read this thread and ctrl+f for "goth"

I like Swans, but there is no real contest. Sonic Youth is maybe the best band of the last 25 years.

this pretty much says it all for me

why are y'all fighting over these lame old goth bands when there's a new Britney album

OTM

actually not OTM

NOTM

IIOTMOII?IDK

DYK?

Swans, on the merit of their older material. Once they delved into the goth/folk stuff *dodges bottles* they lost me.

I dig old SY about equally, but I want to see Swans get creamed.

*don't want

nobody hurts you like a cop with a club.
nobody rapes you like a cop with a club.

in jail

I really want to vote for Swans (especially as Jarboe is a client and personal friend). But I haven't stopped listening to the first three SY albums since high school. That staying power is inarguable.

I wish they'd broken up after Evol. That's the event horizon where they could no longer escape de-evolution.

And yes, over 30.

TS: sonic death vs. public castration is a good idea

ps I voted for live skull

sy only cuz tremens exists

Sonic Youth is maybe the best band of the last 25 years.

you're high.

*awaits a quarrel*

The last Sonic Youth album that I gave more than a couple listens was Washing Machine. I got the next few but I never listened to them after a couple of plays. I've listened to all of the early records tons and enjoyed them quite a bit.

I've heard the early Swans music and while I can appreciate the intensity, I cannot listen to it at all, it is just way too ugly. I really like some of their later records especially Children of God, The Great Annihilator and Soundtracks of the Blind. All of their stuff is all way too serious, which is kind of their deal, but the later records have some really interesting production and sonic textures.

"is it me or has steve shelley been a boring-ass drummer since goo?"

This is a big part of the problem. Shelley used to play like a mad Keith Moon type with all sorts of crazy rolls on the toms, but that is long gone.

The thing with the later swans, sadman folkie material, is that it's usually a love it/hate it kind of thing. i'm iffy on it. i've kept "the burning world" only for a one song, really--"god damn the sun." other than that i'm an early (and early LIVE) guy all the way.

not that i don't love sonic youth, with reservations. another band who was one of my favorites in high school but i've largely stopped paying attention to them and only listening to bad moon rising/sister/daydream rarely.

michael gira's invisible jukebox in the new wire, he mentions sonic youth a little after being played glenn branca. the rest of the interview doesn't have all that much that he hasn't said before, but it's still pretty interesting.

saw angels of light once, they were ok. SONIC YOOF 4 LYFE

Sweet, I'm high, too.

This is really a TS: Dating Madonna vs. Re-Naming Your Band After Madonna, right?

good for swans then? err maybe not so good. anyways so that wasn't just a rumor?

Apparently. From a 1987 interview:

THURSTON: ... she's like, she used to live in New York, she went out with a friend of ours for a while, and I won't tell you who, because you know who it is. And she was in this band called "Spinal...", this weird Gang-of-Four-ish new wave band, with these kids who were in Deep Six, Circus Mort, who turned into the Swans. I mean, there's a weird connection there; so she is actually part of the Swans thing.

S: Madonna is part of the whole Swans trip? This has the makings of a real underground Weekly World News story. . .

THURSTON: Weekly Weird News.

S: A real news flash: Madonna went out with Michael Gira, we have pictures.

THURSTON: Why Michael Gira?

S: Well, I don't know, you said she was hanging out with the Swans, I mean...

THURSTON: Well, you can't say Michael Gira, 'cause he'd be offended. Michael Gira would be very offended.

KIM: Yeah, he's a very private person.

haha!

not high, jaymc. jest jokin'

Did people who hate on later Swans listen to the last three albums, which were fucking raging full-on?

i wish i could be all cool and badass and pick the swans but i like sonic youth better.

I dig Sonic Youth but I digest one of their albums I lose all desire to listen to it ever again. Swans albums keep giving more and more. So I am not being badass by picking Swans. I just like their music more.

This is another thread were Alex, who I think is my age & was probably listening to all the exact same shit as me in the mid-eighties, says "fuck you, this excellent music is not goth" and I say "it's very excellent but all the goths loved it & there probably would have been less of it if the goths hadn't kept the whole enterprise afloat" and we go around like that. "Goth" for some people means "music I don't like" I think.

Christ I can't spell tonight

alex loves a lot of goth music. he just has a fear of the goth label. or he doesn't want people to think he's goth. or he hates goth people. something like that.

ý buy mýne clothes at hot topýc is teh goth?

sez, mr. vague?

everybody in new york circa 1980-82 w/a tangential connection to the music scene has a madonna story. the number of guys she "dated" must be astronomical!

some of their early gigs were like this thread title -- swans "VS" sonic youth, a noize battle unto the death.

i always liked sonic youth better but remain in awe at the gira's musical progression over time, inspiring.

Strawberry Switchblade

lolol

You missed the bit about The Mission having more depth than them.

That Rose McDowall is such a poseur eh?

I love the Mish, but "depth" isn't something I'd expect from a band singing about Faerie Rings and Wastelands.

Sonic Youth, because they were quite simply the better band.

That said, I agree with Edward III that Live Skull were better than either SY or Swans.

But then I would also argue that Savage Republic were better than Sonic Youth or Swans or Live Skull.

And then there's Nice Strong Arm.

At which point it gets tricky......

SWANS completely crush Nice Strong Arm. There is no contest. There is no debate. There is no funeral. There is no apology. Just the merciless, humiliating crushing of Nice Strong Arm.

Everything post "Reality Bath" yes. But "Reality Bath", no. That really is an extraordinary record.

do swans use special goth grip to accomplish this crushing? i have heard the the nice arm is quite strong and crush-resistant. thank you. i am interested in this information.

http://www.historyhouse.com/img/c/russo_japanese_laughing_jap.jpg

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Just wanted to add my voice to the multitude and add that I feel SWANS' covers were better too.

yea i'm feeling swans, too, and i love sonic youth (at least the 80s albums, as i've mentioned previously). when i started the thread i figured it'd be a good fight but that SY would come out on top. i'm not so sure now, maybe swans have got a shot...

Xpost: "But then I would also argue that Savage Republic were better than Sonic Youth or Swans or Live Skull."
I, for one, would agree.

SY, somewhat grudgingly, as I don't have much time for their post 80's output. But I have none at all for Gira, when all is said and done.

"Reality Bath" is ok, but it's so badly recorded (double drums never sounded more like double cardboard boxes) that there's no way it's extraordinary. A shame, actually. xpost.

This thread had me pulling out the Cop/Young God era Swans for the first time in a while...made great background music while walking around the upper east side on a wintry day.

Running the likes of Savage Republic (Live Skull, Dust Devils or whatever) against early SY & Swans, I guess you've got fair fight, but they burned out to early to match the breadth/depth the latter acheived over time. I love Savage Republic, too, but I think I only listen to them so much nowadays 'cuz I've played SY to death.

I was thinking something like that: I could put together a six-song Dustdevils or Rat at Rat R compilation that I like more than any six-song SY/Swans thing, but you're talking 2-4 albums vs. a huge career.

Speaking of SWANS on the Upper East Side, did I ever mention the time I ran into Michael Gira in (preppie apparel enclave) Brooks Brothers?

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

close!

i like the story alex. from what i've heard he's quite pleasant in person.

SWANS completely crush Nice Strong Arm. There is no contest. There is no debate. There is no funeral. There is no apology. Just the merciless, humiliating crushing of Nice Strong Arm.

Alex, I have been reading your posts for most of the 21st century so far, and this one is one of my favorites. Add another beer to the tally of beers I owe you.

I don't think I've ever heard Nice Strong Arm, but I'm 100% convinced by this argument.

lurkers win again

I like both bands,but SY only few early LPs and some songs in the rest of the albums,SWNAS are extreme experience and evolution to the cosmos at the end of his career I think,wante d live video shows!

LOL

If we make this a live poll, it's Swans by a ridiculous margin. And because of that, I pick Swans anyway. Bonus points for having a better sense of when to stop. Double bonus points for better deployment of arguably embarrasing female member. Triple bonus points because Skin/World of Skin is better than any Sonic Youth side project. And so on...

Over 30, but of course.

― dlp9001, Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:34 PM (nine years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

https://phatfriend.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/dr_drew_281x211.jpg

Apparently Gira and Moore didn't speak for years, but they're cool with each other now and Thurston is appearing at a Swans show in London soon. So there's that.