Is this anti-semitism?

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That's Isreal, not Judaism

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:37 (11 years ago) Permalink

Is a state intolerant for forbidding someone to open his business, or restricting his hours of busines by law on the Sabbath no matter what his religion?

Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:37 (11 years ago) Permalink

in·tol·er·ant    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (n-tlr-nt)
adj.

Not tolerant, especially:
a. Unwilling to tolerate differences in opinions, practices, or beliefs, especially religious beliefs.
b. Opposed to the inclusion or participation of those different from oneself, especially those of a different racial, ethnic, or social background.
c. Unable or unwilling to endure or support: intolerant of interruptions; a community intolerant of crime.


I'd say a) is pretty different to b)

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:38 (11 years ago) Permalink

That's Isreal, not Judaism
-- run it off (davebeec...), January 27th, 2004 1:37 PM.


because people conflate judaism with the state of isreal?
-- Stringent Stepper (stringen...), January 27th, 2004 1:30 PM.

there you go mate

Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:39 (11 years ago) Permalink

the State may well be intolerant if it restricted business hours for citizens who don't share the law of the Sabbath, but the religion isn't intolerant because the state does this.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:40 (11 years ago) Permalink

So, if the problem is the conflation of the state and the religion, does that mean it is racist to say that Judaism is intolerant instead of saying that Isreal is intolerant?

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:41 (11 years ago) Permalink

not racist, I mean anti-semitic...

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:41 (11 years ago) Permalink

Huzzah, The UK is intolerant (no shock there....)

Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:42 (11 years ago) Permalink

Well, a lot of places in London settled by Jews had Sunday trading by dint of being closed on Saturday for Sabbath: see Brick Lane/Whitechapel, Golders Green/Hampstead.

suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:44 (11 years ago) Permalink

the religion isn't intolerant because the state does this

I don't know enough about the tenets of Judaism to go into it, but by analogy -- it *is* intolerant if it sanctions the law, surely?

Judaism != Jews, maybe, run it off? It's clumsy, but race and religion are not the same. So it isn't racist to criticize a faith? I doin't know.

Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:46 (11 years ago) Permalink

Religious Law is not intolerant of those who break religious law.

Surely religious las IS intolerant of people who break it. I'm guessing there must be punishments for transgression, even if it's just an evil look during church - and that kind of emotional punishment can be extremely effective/painful, especially in close-knit communities and ones where the people have a God's good will yo lose.



Laws are not opinions, so flouting the law is not a differing opinion either.
If you are a Jew, you do not drive etc on the Sabbath. This is a ritual by which you live a religious life. It is the code by which you get closer to god. That is not intolerant. Judaism would be intolerant if it forbid non-Jews to drive etc on the Sabbath.

-- run it off (davebeec...), January 27th, 2004.

Laws are opinions, they're (usually(should be!)) the opinion of the majority as to how individuals should behave.

Also, not being allowed to drive on a Sunday (or Saturday) IS intolerant: intolerant toward Jews. I think most religions are least tolerant of their own.

mei (mei), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:52 (11 years ago) Permalink

Laws are opinions, they're (usually(should be!)) the opinion of the majority as to how individuals should behave.

That's a bit of a shallow view of jurisprudence.

Ricardo (RickyT), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:55 (11 years ago) Permalink

jurisprudence = ideological screen for repressive state apparatus

Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 14:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

how could a religion as old as the hills sanction a state as young as Isreal? Still less the acts of the leaders of such a state.

The ideological screen idea is itself an ideological screen.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 14:34 (11 years ago) Permalink

Ideologies don't screen. They are productive not obstructive. Eagleton at one point uses the example of the phrase "the Prince of Wales is a nice chap". This is ideological because it produces a certain effect (support for the Royals as people) not because it hides the real social relations (Royals are social leeches, or etc). The fact that it makes no mention of politics, economics, and so on does not mean that it is a screen any more than a black and white photo can be said to be a screen against colour.

As such, juridprudence is not an ideological screen; it is ideological. That doesn't mean it is no different from other ideas or opinions. Opinions that are ratified and authorised are not opinions in the same way as opinions that are not.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 14:41 (11 years ago) Permalink

Sorry -- it was just my little joke. Nonetheless, I think it's interestingly provocative to call laws 'opinions'.

Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 14:46 (11 years ago) Permalink

yes, I agree.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:02 (11 years ago) Permalink

Hey, we Jews are barely tolerant of each other, let alone the rest of you.

Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:12 (11 years ago) Permalink

Enough with the kvetching!

suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:41 (11 years ago) Permalink

kvetching - one of my favourites. A friend calls her young baby a kvetch box

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:47 (11 years ago) Permalink

Every time you moan you have to put a coin in the kvetch box.

Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:55 (11 years ago) Permalink

[all babies are young, aren't they... doh!]

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:59 (11 years ago) Permalink

Laws are opinions, they're (usually(should be!)) the opinion of the majority as to how individuals should behave.
That's a bit of a shallow view of jurisprudence.

-- Ricardo (boyofbadger...), January 27th, 2004.

Jurisprudence is the philosophy of law isn't it? Isn't what I've said what that all boils down too?

Where _is_ the depth?
It's simple isn't it?

mei (mei), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Can you explain how it all boils down to opinion?

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:01 (11 years ago) Permalink

Hey, we Jews are barely tolerant of each other, let alone the rest of you.
-- Chuck Tatum (sappy_papp...), January 27th, 2004.

See! Told you!

And more kvetchup please!

mei (mei), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:01 (11 years ago) Permalink

Laws (attempt to) make people behave in the ways other people _think_ they should behave.

How humans should behave is a matter of opinion. Different religions, for example, havie differing opinions.

mei (mei), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:02 (11 years ago) Permalink

Sorry -- it was just my little joke. Nonetheless, I think it's interestingly provocative to call laws 'opinions'.
-- Enrique (miltonpinsk...), January 27th, 2004.

To clarify, laws themselves aren't exactly opinions, but what they attempt to enshrine as 'right' and 'wrong' ARE opinions.

mei (mei), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:05 (11 years ago) Permalink

I might break the law even though I agree with it generally, but I may also break the law because I have a different opinion as to what is 'rihgt' and what is 'wrong'.

mei (mei), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:06 (11 years ago) Permalink

who are these other people? Don't the laws apply to the people who write them? (Seriously)

If laws are backed by the state (and, after all, that's what makes them laws, rather than guidelines or codes or something else) then they are not just opinions, they are sanctified, ordered, institutionalied, backed up by the criminal justice system etc. I'm not saying power and hierarchy and stuff aren't involved -- of course they are -- but laws don't get to be laws without going through a socially sanctioned process.

The case of breaking the law because you have a different opinion (civil disobedience etc) does not mean that the law is treated as opinion it means that laws are seen as arbitrary and changeble, so that collective action can bring about social changes that force laws to change.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:07 (11 years ago) Permalink

Yes they do apply to those that write them (or they're supposed to).

Yes, they are socially sanctioned, they are the combined opinions of a lot of people.

mei (mei), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:09 (11 years ago) Permalink

By 'opinion' here I mean 'what some people' think is right.

Also, I'm not saying the law is _treated as_ an opinion, I'm saying it _is_ an opinion.

mei (mei), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:11 (11 years ago) Permalink

From dictionary.com

o·pin·ion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-pnyn)
n.

A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof: “The world is not run by thought, nor by imagination, but by opinion” (Elizabeth Drew).

A judgment based on special knowledge and given by an expert: a medical opinion.

A judgment or estimation of the merit of a person or thing: has a low opinion of braggarts.

The prevailing view: public opinion.

Law. A formal statement by a court or other adjudicative body of the legal reasons and principles for the conclusions of the court.

mei (mei), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:12 (11 years ago) Permalink

So for example, the law that says "kill someone, go to jail", implies that killing is wrong.

And "Killing is wrong" is "A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof".


(The last clause of that definition is a coincidence, and not what I was aiming at really, 'opinion' seems to be fairly slight homonym.)

mei (mei), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:15 (11 years ago) Permalink

I believe killing is wrong, but I'll admit that it's just a belief.

mei (mei), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:16 (11 years ago) Permalink

law is not an opinion except in an abstract sense. Even if an opinion is converted into law through the established procedure it is not an opinion. At least it's not an opinion anymore.

That's all I'm saying.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:16 (11 years ago) Permalink

How can 'killing is wrong' be just a belief? Do you mean it's only wrong for you and people who agree with you? What about people who don't agree with you, such as, let me think, ah yes, murderers?

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:18 (11 years ago) Permalink

Our rabbi would curtail his sermon whenever Spurs played home, which was a great act of altruism and tolerance.

Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:24 (11 years ago) Permalink

About 40.5% said Jews in their country had “a particular relationship with money”

So what if a culture is associated with professions like banking and so on? My Parsee ancestors held a similar position in India. Big deal.


That is not nearly as harmless an accusation as you may think. The belief that Jews are obsessed with money is one of the foundations to anti-semitism.

Also "playing the victim" in regards to the Holocaust has that vomit-inducing ring of Holocaust denial.

bnw (bnw), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:25 (11 years ago) Permalink

Why did people stop writing books of the bible, anyway? There should totally be one tracing the decline of Spurs that culminates in them being cast of the garden of 'big clubs'.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:26 (11 years ago) Permalink

So what if a culture is associated with professions like banking and so on? My Parsee ancestors held a similar position in India. Big deal.


That is not nearly as harmless an accusation as you may think. The belief that Jews are obsessed with money is one of the foundations to anti-semitism.

I think N made his point well, actually, in that within the matrix of (especially central and eastern) European culture, the link between Jews and banking/trade was made into an ideological justification for anti-semitism, and was therefore more harmful than in other contexts. Stereotyping according to race/culture is a touchy area, but the association, or the making of associations, is/are not in themselves bad.

Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:30 (11 years ago) Permalink

Sorry for crossposting with a serious post.

bnw - I know that about the money thing. But the question didn't ask 'are Jews intrinsically obsessed with money?'. I know that a good number of the people who answered yes to the question are probably horribly anti-semitic, but I resent the implication that they all have to be. 'Vomit inducing rings' are what all these questions work with, but I prefer my anti-racism to be less 'you must mean that really', in character.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:31 (11 years ago) Permalink

"mentality and lifestyle" different from, and this is the important part, "OTHER CITIZENS." Reminds me of that Bojeffries Saga story where the cops burst in to see a slavering werewolf standing on the table in a restaurant, say "well, it's obvious what our job is here," grab the one black guy in the restaurant, beat him up and drag him away, as one of the other patrons says to his companion "I'm not racism, but they ent the same as us, are they?"

Douglas (Douglas), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:32 (11 years ago) Permalink

I know that a good number of the people who answered yes to the question are probably horribly anti-semitic, but I resent the implication that they all have to be.

My problem with it is how reasonable and academic it makes anti-semitism sound. It allows people to hold onto their suspicions about Jews, and not have to consider themselves anti-semites.

Really, what's the point of the association between jews and money if not anti-semitism? Have you heard this made in a positive light?

bnw (bnw), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:45 (11 years ago) Permalink

No, but I've heard it said in a neutral light, by Enrique four posts up.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:46 (11 years ago) Permalink

This thread made it past 60 posts without anyone mentioning the link to the article doesn't work?

Stuart (Stuart), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:52 (11 years ago) Permalink

Another thing is Jews are what.. like 3% of the population? That makes an 18% anti-semitism rate scary enough.

bnw (bnw), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:52 (11 years ago) Permalink

bnw - I completely agree with that (though I don't understand what the 3% has to do with it)

Stuart - oops! I pasted all the text anyway but the link is here

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:55 (11 years ago) Permalink

I found it too just now. I didn't realize you'd posted the whole piece. I'm looking for the original survey but not having much luck so far.

Stuart (Stuart), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:56 (11 years ago) Permalink

More at good ol' Al Jazeera - including the delightful headline: Jews urged to stop playing Holocaust victim

It also makes note of this, which I hadn't heard about: One in seven Britons says Holocaust is exaggerated.

Stuart (Stuart), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 19:09 (11 years ago) Permalink

This stuff scares me a lot. Because, unless I just had my eyes closed as a young man, it seems that anti-Semitism has really grown just in the last five years. Since 9/11, really.

paulhw (paulhw), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 20:31 (11 years ago) Permalink

and it only took half a millennium

Mordy, Friday, 12 June 2015 01:17 (2 months ago) Permalink

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/06/07/a-body-blow-for-turkeys-ruling-party-election-erdogan-hdp-akp-kurdish-party/

AKP leaders have argued that an array of “lobbies” are aligned against them and bolstering the campaigns of their rivals. The claims have at times played off anti-Semitic tropes.

“There’s an economic lobby in the world, which is under the hand of the Jewish lobby, and these are the ones who want the AKP to fall,” Muhammed Akar, chairman of the AKP’s Diyarbakir branch, told Foreign Policy. “Not only the Jewish lobby, there is another movement — the Crusaders. Because the AKP government is the voice of the Muslims in Turkey, and all the world.”

Mordy, Friday, 12 June 2015 01:38 (2 months ago) Permalink

fp tends to have better comments than other sites:

The best comment I have seen so far was from Ekaterina Shulman "Today's election results saved him from the gallows, although he does not yet understand". https://www.facebook.com/catherine.schulmann/posts/10207100498781821

Mordy, Friday, 12 June 2015 01:41 (2 months ago) Permalink

Because the AKP government is the voice of the Muslims in Turkey, and all the world.”

ha! try telling that to any muslims not in turkey.

he quipped with heat (amateurist), Friday, 12 June 2015 01:46 (2 months ago) Permalink

i like the point about erdogan's electoral defeat saving him from himself

he quipped with heat (amateurist), Friday, 12 June 2015 01:48 (2 months ago) Permalink

the derangement of conspiracy theories need to be calibrated to the actual political conspiratoriality of a country

'no planers' would be towards the normcore end of things in turkey

The Fields of Karlhenry (nakhchivan), Friday, 12 June 2015 01:50 (2 months ago) Permalink

Writing of Violence in the Middle East: Inflictions
https://books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=1441106308
Jason Bahbak Mohaghegh - 2012 - ‎Philosophy
... where intellectual plurality falls to schizoid conspiratoriality, where knowing goes too far (becoming catastrophic), where enlightenment lasts too long (leaving ...

ftr

The Fields of Karlhenry (nakhchivan), Friday, 12 June 2015 01:50 (2 months ago) Permalink

Bern discussed on the 2016 prez thread

Οὖτις, Friday, 12 June 2015 02:20 (2 months ago) Permalink

it's definitely anti-semitism though maybe not rehm's

Guayaquil (eephus!), Friday, 12 June 2015 02:22 (2 months ago) Permalink

There’s an economic lobby in the world, which is under the hand of the Jewish lobby, and these are the ones who want the AKP to fall

that's not really "playing off anti-semitic tropes," it's more what i would call "being anti-semitic"

Guayaquil (eephus!), Friday, 12 June 2015 02:23 (2 months ago) Permalink

Rehm woke up late, skimmed facebook, intern out sick

jennifer islam (silby), Friday, 12 June 2015 02:23 (2 months ago) Permalink

fp is unerringly euphemistic about unpleasant things

Mordy, Friday, 12 June 2015 02:24 (2 months ago) Permalink

from the founder of the Muslim Public Affairs Committee UK

Mordy, Saturday, 13 June 2015 22:22 (2 months ago) Permalink

And probably the only member of the Muslim Public Affairs Committee UK

Willibald Pirckheimers Briefwechsel (Tom D.), Saturday, 13 June 2015 22:29 (2 months ago) Permalink

Like elves, we sneak into people's homes at night and rearrange the furniture/hide car keys/reset internet routers

Οὖτις, Saturday, 13 June 2015 22:34 (2 months ago) Permalink

That was actually one of Manson's more original ideas.

Willibald Pirckheimers Briefwechsel (Tom D.), Saturday, 13 June 2015 22:37 (2 months ago) Permalink

wtf

creepy anti-semitism or delusional disorder or both

drash, Saturday, 13 June 2015 22:39 (2 months ago) Permalink

Did the guy who does the facehugger / lady liberty pictures not also claim that the illuminati was waiting until he was asleep and moving his shoes?

For the record, he is a huge anti-semite and leader of a group with an impressive-sounding name but, as Tom points out, about four members. He gets much more media attention than he merits.

Petite Lamela (ShariVari), Saturday, 13 June 2015 22:41 (2 months ago) Permalink

Louvre Museum, other French sites refuse to book Israeli students' visit
French governor asks prosecution office to probe the incident over suspicions of illegal discrimination.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.661256

Mordy, Monday, 15 June 2015 19:01 (2 months ago) Permalink

abhorrent, obviously. would have liked to see how the test would have gone had they tried to book a group of students from a Russian university, rather than from an Italian one

droit au butt (Euler), Tuesday, 16 June 2015 10:56 (2 months ago) Permalink

ugh. still always surprised by things like this, guess i shouldn't be

drash, Tuesday, 16 June 2015 13:52 (2 months ago) Permalink

3 weeks pass...

it's really all worth reading. this is from near the end of the piece:

What surprised many was Ghozlan’s determination to leave. He resisted encouragement from a friend and neighbor, Hassen Chalghoumi, the imam of Drancy, who moved to that suburban town, the next one over from Le Blanc-Mesnil, from Tunisia in 1996. He has been an ally of Ghozlan’s for most of the past decade, attending his rollicking Shabbat dinners and hosting Ghozlan for lunches at his mosque. “I told him again and again, ‘You cannot leave,’ ” Chalghoumi told me. “Sammy would not engage in the conversation.”

Chalghoumi is tall and commanding, with an exuberant personality. “The world changed on 9/11,” he said. “At the airport I am often pulled out of the lines.” But the imam reacted strongly when I referred to “Islamophobia.” “I will not use that word,” he said. “That plays into a sense of victimization.”

Chalghoumi gave a speech at the Shoah Memorial in Drancy in 2006. Not long after, his house was vandalized, the contents damaged or destroyed. At a prayer service in 2009, Chalghoumi talked about the need to respect the Jews and their centuries of culture. The next day, around 200 protesters collected outside his mosque, confronting anyone who tried to enter. Many of the protesters waved signs: PUPPET OF THE JEWS. With members of a Jewish organization, he toured Israel with 20 imams in 2012. When he returned, there was a mass of demonstrators at the airport. In 2013, he was in Tunisia with his family when he was assaulted near a mosque. His daughters were with him and have yet to get over it. He spent days in the hospital.[

Mordy, Thursday, 9 July 2015 00:30 (1 month ago) Permalink

:(

drash, Thursday, 9 July 2015 01:01 (1 month ago) Permalink

Like many in his situation, Comte now lives “a bit of a double life,” he said, in France. “I have told all my children, ‘Do not let anyone know you are Jewish. It is a private affair.’ But my youngest son, recently a Bar Mitzvah, insists on wearing a small Star of David. I let him know my concern. I said, ‘You must be careful.’ Now, when I go to synagogue, I have a gun that I carry in my coat pocket so no one can see it. It has come to that.”

drash, Thursday, 9 July 2015 01:03 (1 month ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

Not to disawov that article completely, I'm sure there's a bunch of anti-semitism in attacks on Schumer and other Jewish politicians in this case, but former Israeli ambassador Michael B. Oren has explicitly stated that US should drop this deal and instead issue 'credible military threat' against Iran. (http://www.vox.com/2015/7/23/9016971/iran-deal-michael-oren) 'Murmuring' that there are foreign interests trying to drag the US into war can not be taboo because of anti-semitism, when there are in fact former ambassadors who try to drag the US into war.

Frederik B, Monday, 10 August 2015 10:52 (3 weeks ago) Permalink


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