Kanye West - Dark Twisted Fantasy

music comes first, lyrics second (and sometimes not at all).

I wonder what the rock/pop division even looks like from where Kanye's standing — I mean he has to know that this album is "not pop" in the sense that, y'know, the singles don't sound like other singles that ppl are listening to — which is no biggie, he's already gone there and then some with 808s, 'heartfelt' 'personal' 'artistic' choices trumping audience sensibilities — but it's weird because here, again, private and public get all jumbled up, so that in the end it's hard to know who Kanye sees as "putting up with my shit for way too long" vs. calling him a motherfucking monster

like he's addressing the 'pop music audience' to tell them how frustrated he is by their codependent relationship. but it never quite boils over into a full-blown argument, so maybe that's where some of y'all feel let down.

which leads me to something else I'm getting from the album that I wonder if other people maybe aren't: it doesn't sound lazy or phoned-in, it sounds angry. maybe just straight-up hurtful. I mean, the hook on "Gorgeous" ("I can feel it slowly slipping away from me / I'm on the edge so why you playin'? [...] I will never ever let you live this down") seems to more-or-less explicitly tell the haters in the media 'If I kill myself, it'll be your fault!' — the question being, I guess, whether Kanye does it with more or less self-awareness than a teenager yelling at his parents

music comes first, lyrics second (and sometimes not at all).

i can't conceive of separating them like this. when i hear the music i also hear lyrics, i can't tune one or the other out (unless they're actually, like, unintelligible, which sadly isn't the case here).

Admittedly I am always way more into the sounds than I am the words (deeply ironic for a semi-professional chorister). I have said in the past that I don't care about lyrics but that isn't really the case; it's more that I have to really, REALLY dislike the lyrics in order for them to negatively impact my enjoyment of a song. Most times, they are value-neutral. When I really dig them, they elevate the song to another plane.

but yeah he was going "i can use my arrogance as a STEAM to power my DREAMS" on his first album and "why you think me and Dame cool? we assholes!" even before that, don't know why people are treating "Runaway" as this brash zeitgeist grabbing statement and not just the same thing he's been saying for almost a decade.

― some dude, Wednesday, December 15, 2010 2:22 PM (44 minutes ago) Bookmark

this nails it tbh, none of this is new, it's just bigger and uglier; 'runaway' is practically unlistenable unless you listen to stuff in order to unpick it on the internet

lex: I guess I think lyrics — at least the kind that I like — are primarily performative, and can therefore easily 'misfire' based on the listener's perception of the character/performer pronouncing them. so, for example, Lil B's lyrics actually ~do~ seem like the grossest most misogynistic shit ever if somebody totally misses the satirical intent of a line like "I fuck her face like her husband" or "Bitches suck my dick cuz my chain look like lightning" or whatever

this is going to blow your mind HM, but not everyone dislikes ugly music

like, no one ever sat around going "I am in the mood for the dulcet tones of Nitzer Ebb"

sure, im just saying

fwiw among the autogoon people i'm one of the least lyric-focused and more into drums/production/hooks/overall sound. but i mean, i'm not just saying "Kanye's a bad rapper thus this album is bad," i don't really love the sound of the album either.

metal machine music to thread.

lol let's not go crazy and overstate the ugliness of this album

and i'm saying his rapping is pretty much irrelevant. it's the tone of voice i'm interested in, not the nitty-gritty specifics that voice is mewling over.

xp

j/k

yeah i just don't know how you can really ONLY listen to the tone of his voice and not process the words that are being said. that's just weird.

i mean i can see listening to a Twista or Nelly or ODB album and going "i have no idea what he just said but the way he said it is a blast!" but Kanye, especially on this album, is so emphatic and deliberate about hammering home every punchline and 'profound' observation, it's built into his deliery.

it's the tone of voice i'm interested in, not the nitty-gritty specifics that voice is mewling over.

― You're Twistin' My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy Man! (Ioannis), Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:19 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark

someone's been reading their mallarme

and i'm saying his rapping is pretty much irrelevant.

you can think that if you like, but it's hardly "rockist" or odd in any way to care about rapping on a rap album

it's the tone of voice i'm interested in

this is an even worse look than his words tbh - relentless and increasingly nasal whine that's way too high in the mix. the sound of his voice is what i disliked most about the album, by three-quarters of the way through i wanted nothing more than for kanye to just STFU

palm meet head. hi-de-do.

xp

well, tov is not the only thing that matters to me here, just sayin' it's what i'm prioritizing.

also, i'm a KISS fan. simple really.

I dunno, sometimes the lyrics don't actually matter that much and the pleasure in listening is just being able to ride an MC's flow*. If lyrics were really the be all and end all then no one would ever listen to an rap in languages other than your own.

*Once again this doesn't really work as defence of Kanye.

what's interesting about Ye here--as opposed to Lohan, Britney et al--are the aesthetic choices he consciously makes time and again: Crimson sample on one track, say; "Echoes" derived piano tinkling on another; guests galore stinking up the joint just so; you name it. as i see it, he's the ringmaster, the album is his big top, and the guests his freaks/performers. of course, he's also the star attraction, which is where things get kinda weird. and for me that's where all the talk re: persona an' shit comes in. but, yeah, if you want, there's nothing inherently more daring this or cutting edge that going on on any specific piece of music here either. it's the whole shebang in toto, rather, that's really captivating (hey, just like in an good prog-rock record. well, waddya know?). and i loved Britney's Blackout-era weirdness, too, btw.

― You're Twistin' My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy Man! (Ioannis), Wednesday, December 15, 2010 10:02 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

good post but doesn't this seem like, appreciation-by-checklist - like, got the weird prog sample, check, got the massive posse cut, check, got the homage-paying track, check...

I still don't know how these all add up to 'greatest album of the year'

Well... it doesn't! I like the album and I wouldn't even rank it as a top 10 album of the year.

hey, you're not loannis!

;)

what can i say, it's an art-rock thing. for me it makes sense in its entirety rather than as some amalgamation of assorted pop-cultural detritus Ye just put together one weekend--but like bernard snowy (i think) said, this is not a collection of radio-friendly pop tunes. i mean, Kanye is going back and forth and contradicting himself all over the thing, anyway (tho probably nowhere near as much as i am here), so why worry whether the damn thing coheres in this that or the other respect. so, um, yeah, i do dig it nonetheless.

anyone catch the number of that bus?

hah - I mean, you seem to be criticizing the way some of us are criticizing the album for being too rockist or w/e - that's why I'm curious as to what avenue you're approaching this album from, maybe I could try to listen to it from your perspective

anyway it seems that a lot of people are more interested/in love with the idea of the album than the album itself

im not sure why but i find the people who dislike the album as strongly as i do to have some of the worst arguments against it

kanye's narrative abilities were never a strength in the first place -- hes just sapped the laconic humor from them that used to entertain me & infused them with this bitter self-awareness that isnt as self aware as he thinks it is. i dont think that means someone cant make an argument that his lyrics are in fact part of the package of why they like the record, or argue that you are missing the pt if you say 'show dont tell!'

anyway it seems that a lot of people are more interested/in love with the idea of the album than the album itself

― dayo, Wednesday, December 15, 2010 10:05 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this is the kind of bullshit that annoys me about much of the criticism in this thread

basically i dont buy the criticisms of his lyrics themselves, i buy criticisms of why this strategy fails big picture -- theres nothing wrong w / trying narrative styles that are tell-dont-show if you make it work -- so criticize why this doesnt work

i'd rather you just tell me I have shitty musical tastes for liking this album than imply that I have ulterior motives for liking it or that I couldn't possibly just like it based on the album itself

n/a you have shitty musical taste :(

anyway it seems that a lot of people are more interested/in love with the idea of the album than the album itself

― dayo, Wednesday, December 15, 2010 10:05 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

deej i know what you mean but this feels of a piece with your insistence that this album be acknowledged as "important"--it's a lot easier to believe an album is important and talk it up than to believe that but talk it down.

guys if you're working too hard to spend enough time with your girl, you are clearly a fucking jerk-off.

why is there so much hand-wringing ITT about this line?

im not sure why but i find the people who dislike the album as strongly as i do to have some of the worst arguments against it

http://toppun.com/Great-Quotes/Peace-Quotes/Peace-Quote-18_small.gif

yo i hear what you sayin, so let's just pump the music up... and count our money

deej i know what you mean but this feels of a piece with your insistence that this album be acknowledged as "important"--it's a lot easier to believe an album is important and talk it up than to believe that but talk it down.

― call all destroyer, Wednesday, December 15, 2010 10:15 AM (48 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i dont get this -- some dude keeps giving me shit about it too -- maybe this is just that i try to look things from the historical?? but also just that lol in my world of young ppl this album is a big deal right now, & denying its importance has a tilting at windmills feel to me

who is "denying its importance"?

i'm not making a comment either way, just noting that the two seem interrelated.

well, i don't know about that. i kinda hate the idea of the album, and was all set to loathe it after the initial cursory listen, tbh. but now, i just like listening to it. it's weird, it's fucked up, it's appealing in a faintly unappealing way--honestly, i'm not trying to make it sound like this day's NMTBHTSP, but there you have it--it's Kanye Today.

xp - dayo

It's kind of a no-brainer that critics in particular are kind of obsessed with Kanye-as-spectacle; on a certain level, it doesn't matter how messy the album is because it is a Kanye album and that gives it a certain level of cachet that some unknown dude on a mixtape is never going to have.

I do think people are underselling Kanye's sense of rhythm on this album; a lot of what he says is stupid but he sits pretty nicely on the beat on "Power" in particular. I would agree that he was better on Late Registration but I disagree that that makes what he does here de facto bad.

i think some ppl are finding the album "big," "important," and difficult to approach and therefore giving kanye the benefit of the doubt.

lol of course now listening to "All of the Lights" I want to take that second paragraph back

like I would say this is an objectively feeble performance, but I still massively dig it because of the percussion and the horns

i am sceptical or unconvinced about most of the criticism, as much as of the glowing praise (because i find the album to be mediocre overall - some brilliant bits some awful bits). i've always found kanye quite irritating as an MC and lyricist tho (other times funny, interesting etc.) - doesn't really matter as long as it's a dope production (weirdly i love 'Diamonds From Sierra Leone' now more than I did at the time) and i've been kinda obsessed with older tracks like 'The New Workout Plan', 'Addiction' and 'Late' and this has affected my view of the new work in an unexpected way. I'm actually more sympathetic towards Kanye because I understand and appreciate the earlier albums more now, partly out of wanting to have a better understanding of what made him great then that he may have since lost (tho 'Devil In A New Dress' sounds to me like something worthy of Late Reg if only because of the huge gorgeous sample).

"all of the lights" should be a cool song, but it's just not

great criticism

but talking about why the album is "important" = booooooring

whereas talking about why the album is interesting (and the length of this thread validates that claim better than anything else imo) = fascinating

who is "denying its importance"?

― some dude, Wednesday, December 15, 2010 10:19 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

it seems like a lot of your criticisms are trying to shrink perceptions of the scope of the record -- i mean wouldnt that describe the entire exchange about 'retreads' fit in here? also your contention that if the record was called 'good ass job' w/ the mascot cover it would be treated totally differently (which in this context is like, if the record was a different record, it would be treated diff -- duh!)

is lil' b doing satire or is he just stoned out of his gourd and saying whatever silly shit plops out of his brain?

i meant the exact same audio CD in a diff't sleeve

that sets (a very narrowly-conceived notion of) artistic 'originality' over and against conventionality/craft, with the latter not seen as basically empty, neutral, and valueless

I don't think anyone has ever looked at Kanye for 'originality' and not 'craft'. All his best are stolen* and he has confessed them as such. And I don't see the 'angry' aspect of this record. Or if it is there, is poorly put across. Mainly I hear petulance. Anger is the 'George Bush doesn't care about black people' speech, on point, direct but personal. This is faceless, nameless, throwing any old toys out the pram. He has a lot to potentially talk about but instead never goes into more detail than 'choke a south park writer with a fish stick' (which itself shows he didn't get the joke).

*Says he stole the drums from XXplosive for his first big production and lol daft punk samples after Touch It came out, didn't come up with the chipmunk soul thing, lol been way late on c&s and then auto-tune etc.

hella xposts