Kanye West - Dark Twisted Fantasy

if you want i can give you an example of when i think i've done this -- my j-stalin review for pitchfork. I think (& still do) that stalin is an underrated rapper (certainly by critics) & as such i tried too hard to push him in the other direction -- while i stand by the individual arguments i made in my review, i think the overall effect of it was a somewhat dishonest picture of the record that could have used more balance -- particularly what matt dc said in tim f's thread is fairly on point. i think more ppl would take my perspective seriously on the record if id approached it in that kind of evenhanded way. it doesnt help that i said the record was his ability fully realized, when ive come around to thinking his previous album was in fact a better example of this

I still have no idea how you are using the term 'dishonest'

deej sure loves throwing around big accusations. "deceptive" smh, stop attention-seeking

its not something i thought was dishonest at the time, but on reflection it was a deceptive

Yeah I don't get it. You like J Stalin, you write a review recommending him to be a good artist to listen to, I don't get the dishonesty. Lex doesn't like MBDTF, Lex writes a review saying he doesn't recommend it, I don't get the dishonesty. Dombal writes a review saying he thinks its an important record because he thinks of it like an important record maybe more than a personal favourite - doesn't nec. make it dishonest.

lol you realize that you guys are actually agreeing with each other---that no-trivia piece (or the excerpt quoted in this thread, at least) IS doing what DJP accused the pfork review of doing, and THAT's why it sucks and seems bend-over-backwardsy

I mean every review could turn into "hey guys go make yr own opinion" but then what is the fucking point?

im thinking this is a pedantic disagreement over my use of 'dishonesty' more than it is about 'criticizing certain styles of criticism'

semantic

deej are you accusing me of intentionally lying to my readers?

dudes for the last time this has nothing to do w/ forgetting to use 'imo'

ehh I don't think that's true gbx - from what I recall, the pfork review was using a bunch of extra-album stuff (i.e. stuff not related to the album whatsoever like kanye's twitter, his presence in the media etc.) whereas this no-trivia thing is explicitly using elements from the songs themselves to support his argument

Well even if you take the strong words out of it deej, I don't get your point. What is wrong with you trying to convince people of listening to someone you think more people should be listening to?

Well even if you take the strong words out of it deej, I don't get your point. What is wrong with you trying to convince people of listening to someone you think more people should be listening to?

― irish xmas caek, get that marzipan inta ya (a hoy hoy), Monday, December 13, 2010 9:54 AM (48 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

nothing, its HOW YOU DO IT that matters.

I think there are terms much better suited to what you are using 'dishonest' for, like maybe overblown, or bombastic, or ostentatious, or exaggerated, or over-the-top?

tbf i didn't read that no-trivia piece, just the bit you excerpted. it seemed so awful from that snippet alone that i didn't want to read the whole thing. then i went to the website (i've never heard of it) and the dude is dropping a 1000+ words on each track which made me squeamish so i thought fuck it

i still really don't understand what you all are arguing about in this thread. like, ever. i just pop in sometimes to see if the cluster is still fucking

i keep hoping it's about race

there's still time!

I just like poking deej

I think there are terms much better suited to what you are using 'dishonest' for, like maybe overblown, or bombastic, or ostentatious, or exaggerated, or over-the-top?

― deej me how to whiney (dayo), Monday, December 13, 2010 9:56 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

what if it contradicts content directly?

I just like poking deej

― deej me how to whiney (dayo), Monday, December 13, 2010 9:59 AM (33 seconds ago) Bookmark

well we all do. it's just so....reliable

sorry deej i remember reading the review and don't remember it being anything more than what you would expect "hey guyz there is this cool dude who should maybe have a bigger following". it wasn't liking you were calling him the second coming of jesus.

i'm genuinely not sure whether deej is deliberately throwing these accusations around to goad me, or whether he's too dim to actually realise how serious they are for a professional critic. either way, shut the fuck up, you moronic little gadfly.

I just like poking deej

― deej me how to whiney (dayo), Monday, December 13, 2010 9:59 AM (33 seconds ago) Bookmark

i just like sbing dayo

thank you sir, may I have another

arguing? check.
butthurtedness? check.

good job guys keeping this thread alive

that universalizing-subjectivity-as-fact thing is exactly what i was criticizing lex's piece for basically how criticism works.

no, its really not

I must be missing a crucial part of your argument then.

i think we all get carried away from time to time in visceral reactions to records & end up letting this keep from being as precise as we want. i dont mean this as a damning dishonesty, like some grand conspiracy to deceive an audience, but more like an excitability that makes us more ax-grinding and less precise / genuine.

worst thread ever

at least it parallels the kanye album (overwrought, really stupid in parts, occasional glimpses of greatness but then is weighted back down by its flaws, goes on and on and on with no end in sight)

xpost. OK, I get your point now. I don't see it as subjectivity vs fact but yeah, it's hard not to get swept up in the moment, whether that's a general cultural mood or just the force of your own initial reactions. I'm not sure whether later, more distanced reactions are any more precise or genuine though - heat-of-the-moment can be genuine even if you later row back a little.

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but this stoop has the best view

worst thread ever

― i genuinely thought when i first joined that he was the admin (ilxor), Monday, December 13, 2010 11:19 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

well now that you're here

next kanye album thread needs to be treated like Animal Collective - Merriweather Post Pavilion (2009)

xpost. OK, I get your point now. I don't see it as subjectivity vs fact but yeah, it's hard not to get swept up in the moment, whether that's a general cultural mood or just the force of your own initial reactions. I'm not sure whether later, more distanced reactions are any more precise or genuine though - heat-of-the-moment can be genuine even if you later row back a little.

― The baby boomers have defined everything once and for all (Dorianlynskey), Monday, December 13, 2010 10:20 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

i think i tend to get more from reviews that tell me something that i, too, see in the record, then discuss how those things function, whether for good or bad. if a writer is describing something that i dont hear -- after reading it & giving it another shot to hear that particular characteristic -- especially when it seems like the writer is involved in a partisan project to convince me of its cultural value / lack thereof -- im probably not going to be very into that review. im less interested in the war between thumbs up vs. thumbs down.

this goes for whether i like or dont like or am ambivalent about a record, i think

^^^i might be overstating things a bit here, not sure, have 2 reflect

i find the idea that opinions are only genuine if they're somewhat tempered to be really odd. is this a US/UK divide? i remember back in the stylus jukebox days, all the US writers would hand out marks between 5 and 7, for EVERYTHING, whereas in the UK version you were assured every week of multiple 0s and 10s.

a partisan project

every piece of criticism is a "partisan project" o_0

every time i write a review, damn str8 i'm trying to convince the reader of an album or artist's cultural import/lack thereof

i think i tend to get more from reviews that tell me something that i, too, see in the record, then discuss how those things function, whether for good or bad.

^^ caveat that sometimes they can open up something i hadnt heard originally, but do on re-listening

yeah but imo insight trumps all

if a writer is describing something that i dont hear -- after reading it & giving it another shot to hear that particular characteristic -- especially when it seems like the writer is involved in a partisan project to convince me of its cultural value / lack thereof -- im probably not going to be very into that review gonna call that writer dishonest

fixed that for you

well, if he misrepresents something, yes

every time i write a review, damn str8 i'm trying to convince the reader of an album or artist's cultural import/lack thereof

― lex lex lex lex lex on the track BOW (lex pretend), Monday, December 13, 2010 10:31 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

even if it means saying a kanye record sounds just like his old ones, when this is blatantly not the case?

*marks bingo card*

deej for all the time you seem to have spent thinking about my review, i'm not convinced you've actually read it, or indeed clocked that it's a 150-word capsule review and therefore by its very nature not going to go into great detail or justifications

xp wtf have i "misrepresented"? are you seriously going to try to have this argument again? why don't you just come out with it and call me a liar? this, fyi, is the point at which i would dump a drink on your head if you were saying this shit to me IRL