Kanye West - Dark Twisted Fantasy

xp to lex: he's certainly not just doing the same old same old, tho. i mean, did anybody here expect Ye to make such a polarizing, monstrous (heh, i know, SB away) record a year or so ago? i sure didn't.

― You're Twistin' My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy Man! (Ioannis), Sunday, December 12, 2010 12:23 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah, never thought the guy who made 808s & Heartbreaks would make such a polarizing record

his entire public persona has been based around being polarising and ~monstrous~ (eye-rolling tildes firmly necessary) for YEARS

xp!

also the diddy/dirty money album is everything that people said MBDTF was re: being a fascinatingly self-involved, madly ambitious search for emotion through the prism of the mind of a "monstrous" ego-driven celebrity. SO much better.

yeah, i know, but that was an entirely different beast there. this one's more like Graduation pumped up on steroids, or something even worse; a genuinely ugly artifact from top to bottom. again, not a direction i was expecting him to go in.

xp

i'll take your word for that, lex.

i recommend you listen to the album too

although that's kinda it, isn't it? kanye's this credible auteur figure in rock/rock-crit world. people are ready and willing and primed to call anything he dribbles a "masterpiece" and cover it in guff about being s0 ugly and monstrous that it's like nothing else. yet diddy covers a lot of the same ground thematically, but actually uses startling imagery and awesome beats and genuine oddity, and people go "nah, not gonna bother" cuz of who he is.

has it even been released yet?

xp

I can't believe everyone is sleeping on this album that isn't even out yet!

when an album leaks it's pretty much out -- also lex is right, it's not like people are gonna pay attention to the diddy record starting next week

i hadn't even heard about til you mentioned it. maybe cause Diddy has not generally been on my radar recently (and hasn't been since biggie die, actually)? i've been following Kanye for a decade or so, on the other hand, and therefore tend to have a bit more emotional investment in whatever shit he produces. not exactly a big deal/mystery really imo.

no one is really talking about you, specifically

no duh!

that post was a xp to lex anyway.

couldn't disagree more with lex re: mbdtf, but the comparison with diddy's album is an apt one. diddy generally does not get enough credit as an auteur imo.

I thought being an auteur was the ONLY credit Diddy got; it's not like ppl think he can rhyme, either.

also this is some massive generation gap shit:

when an album leaks it's pretty much out

diddy mainly gets credit as a businessman, really

he gets credit as an impresario/businessman, yes, and probably more than anything as an outsize pop-culture personality -- as seen in his MTV reality shows, his "get him to the greek" role, etc. but i rarely see him spoken about as someone who is very good at putting together a coherent listening experience. which he is!

what do we think of the defense being mounted over at no-trivia.com? I think the dude is kind of bending over backwards, especially with stuff like this:

via his delightfully groan-inducing punchlines

but I'd be curious if anyone here would like to pick up any of his points and run with it

I think one of the pillars of his defense is that "Kanye is in on the joke" or that Kanye is self-aware of how ridiculous his album is. I don't find that to be the case but would love to hear otherwise

well, i don't think kanye really thinks he's the best living or dead hands down hah

really?

"delightfully groan-inducing"

what?

"delightfully nauseating"
"delightfully headache-inducing"
"delightfully soul-destroying"

"delightfully groan-inducing reupholstered pussy"

It’s like the world’s going on around Kanye as he’s lying on the floor, drooling, tears coming out of his eyes, snot dripping from his nose. There’s absolutely no “need” for this to be stuck on the end of an excellent, clever pop-rap song, but it feels vital and really puts you inside of heartbreak. It’s tedious and annoying and seems like it’ll never end.

NOW I get why "MacArthur Park" is tedious and annoying.

that universalizing-subjectivity-as-fact thing is exactly what i was criticizing lex's piece for

huh?

clearly this guy is being dishonest and devious

clearly dayo is being willfully stupid

I seem to like and find amusing Kanye's deliberate bad (half) singing on Dark Fantasy but hate it in pretty much every other instance on this. Probably no point trying to rationalise this really.

rhetorical dishonesty -- trying to convince the reader by telling him things are good or bad by treating them as objective characteristics rather than subjective ones

is that more clear?

dan p made, like, the exact same pt in his critique of the pfork review upthread

rhetorical dishonesty -- trying to convince the reader by telling him things are good or bad by treating them as objective characteristics rather than subjective ones

But that's what critics do. You expect him to add "In my opinion" or "I feel" before every remark. I don't understand your complaints.

glad to see you're able to keep above the things you accuse others of doing deej ;)

also glad to see that you've finally settled on a more qualified way of accusing others of dishonesty

i guess thats not exactly what i was accusing lex of -- i suggested his approach was deceptive outright, which i suppose is a slightly different angle of the same problem

glad to see you're able to keep above the things you accuse others of doing deej ;)

also glad to see that you've finally settled on a more qualified way of accusing others of dishonesty

― deej me how to whiney (dayo), Monday, December 13, 2010 9:39 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

im certainly not & i said as much when i first brought this up upthread. but i would hope ppl would call me on it too

this is really too easy

But that's what critics do. You expect him to add "In my opinion" or "I feel" before every remark. I don't understand your complaints.

― Gus Van Sotosyn (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, December 13, 2010 9:38 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

no i expect him to explain why it is this way instead of asserting it as obvious fact

this is really too easy

― deej me how to whiney (dayo), Monday, December 13, 2010 9:41 AM (25 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

you're not nearly as smart as you seem to think you are

deej have you ever thought that when everyone else disagrees with you and agrees w/ each other that maybe you are the one who is rong?

dayo & a hoy hoy = everyone?

Basically, I think the problem with that Pitchfork review is the voice. Had it been more conversational and personal, it would have come across more as a dude you know who was wildly, totally amped about this album and couldn't wait to turn you onto it; you may agree or disagree but the pronouncements of greatness would have been easier to digest. As it stands, it reads as a dude you know attempting to convince you using empirical evidence that this is the best album of the year and failing miserably because he is exuding uncritical fanboyishness out of every pore, causing muddled comparisons and rampant overselling of things that, if they are as good as he says they are, would speak for themselves.

Still probably going to pick this up though, because the description of the Aphex sampling track sounds great.

xp: orchestra != "baroque"

― ali-baba-boob-job-bomb.jpg (DJP), Monday, November 22, 2010 9:46 AM (3 weeks ago) Bookmark

if you want i can give you an example of when i think i've done this -- my j-stalin review for pitchfork. I think (& still do) that stalin is an underrated rapper (certainly by critics) & as such i tried too hard to push him in the other direction -- while i stand by the individual arguments i made in my review, i think the overall effect of it was a somewhat dishonest picture of the record that could have used more balance -- particularly what matt dc said in tim f's thread is fairly on point. i think more ppl would take my perspective seriously on the record if id approached it in that kind of evenhanded way. it doesnt help that i said the record was his ability fully realized, when ive come around to thinking his previous album was in fact a better example of this

I still have no idea how you are using the term 'dishonest'

deej sure loves throwing around big accusations. "deceptive" smh, stop attention-seeking

its not something i thought was dishonest at the time, but on reflection it was a deceptive

Yeah I don't get it. You like J Stalin, you write a review recommending him to be a good artist to listen to, I don't get the dishonesty. Lex doesn't like MBDTF, Lex writes a review saying he doesn't recommend it, I don't get the dishonesty. Dombal writes a review saying he thinks its an important record because he thinks of it like an important record maybe more than a personal favourite - doesn't nec. make it dishonest.

lol you realize that you guys are actually agreeing with each other---that no-trivia piece (or the excerpt quoted in this thread, at least) IS doing what DJP accused the pfork review of doing, and THAT's why it sucks and seems bend-over-backwardsy

I mean every review could turn into "hey guys go make yr own opinion" but then what is the fucking point?

im thinking this is a pedantic disagreement over my use of 'dishonesty' more than it is about 'criticizing certain styles of criticism'