Kanye West - Dark Twisted Fantasy

you're right

"i'm not a rockist, but i play one on ilx."

and, no lie, "Runaway" is def my track of the year.

technical terminology and taste aside, i don't know how someone would be shocked to hear another person say Kanye's reach exceeded his grasp on that part.

― da croupier, Friday, December 10, 2010 9:19 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^^that's pretty much the most on-point post on this entire misbegotten thread, imo. and even tho that's kinda been Ye's MO from the start, he nonetheless continually keeps upping the ante on MBDTF. but that's exactly what makes it so thrilling to me (and maybe most of us here?), really: will he keep pushing til he reaches the "next level" (whatever the fuck that may mean), or will he fall flat, face-first on his his own arrogant bullshit?

me, i've always appreciated this tendency in "rockist" heroes like Neil Young and Lou Reed (also Madonna?), and i likewise dig it here.

of course, that doesn't make the music any better (or worse), just a little more interesting--and perhaps worth making the effort to reappraise now and again? rather than, you know, prematurely deciding "it sucks now, it sucked then, and i can personally guarantee that it will continue to suck for all time to come," just cause it was the cool, contrarian POV to hold whenever.

end of sermon

hail saytin!

but when Madonna wanted her reach to exceed her grasp she took opera lessons; Ye just got laid more often, or at least wrote about getting laid more often.

what does that have to do with anything?

just sayin' this record makes more sense when seen through Pink Floyd's DSOTM rockist prism is all. and i don't particularly care whether he's raping/singing about getting laid or setting course for the heart of the sun, either--tho, personally, i do appreciate his self-loathing quite a bit. to each his own, ya know.

he's got that ambition, baby. look in his eyes: this week he's making The Blueprint and College Dropout, next week he's mumbling unintelligibly.

oh, and Madonna exceeded her grasp every damn time she attempted to sing and/or command a stage. 's part of the reason i love her so, in fact.

*er i meant rapping there, natch*

Strike a pose, there's nothing to it.

i honestly don't hear kanye "pushing himself" or "upping the ante" on MBDTF any more than most other given artists did this year

if fans of this album want "Pink Floyd's DSOTM rockist prism," they can have it.

My Beautiful Dark Side of the Moon

My Beautiful Dark Twisted Side of the Moon, please. and it's not a question of whether we want it or not, it's simply what we're getting, period. and that really is the only way in which MBDTF is at all analogous to SPLHCB: i.e., it's a similar "buy the ticket, take the ride" sorta deal. also, gotta say i'm surprised at some of you Zep-heads making such a big deal of Kanye's questionable moral/ethical stance, re: male-female relations.

xp to lex: he's certainly not just doing the same old same old, tho. i mean, did anybody here expect Ye to make such a polarizing, monstrous (heh, i know, SB away) record a year or so ago? i sure didn't.

My Beautiful Dark Twisted Side of The Wall (to be Off of)

xp to lex: he's certainly not just doing the same old same old, tho. i mean, did anybody here expect Ye to make such a polarizing, monstrous (heh, i know, SB away) record a year or so ago? i sure didn't.

― You're Twistin' My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy Man! (Ioannis), Sunday, December 12, 2010 12:23 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah, never thought the guy who made 808s & Heartbreaks would make such a polarizing record

his entire public persona has been based around being polarising and ~monstrous~ (eye-rolling tildes firmly necessary) for YEARS

xp!

also the diddy/dirty money album is everything that people said MBDTF was re: being a fascinatingly self-involved, madly ambitious search for emotion through the prism of the mind of a "monstrous" ego-driven celebrity. SO much better.

yeah, i know, but that was an entirely different beast there. this one's more like Graduation pumped up on steroids, or something even worse; a genuinely ugly artifact from top to bottom. again, not a direction i was expecting him to go in.

xp

i'll take your word for that, lex.

i recommend you listen to the album too

although that's kinda it, isn't it? kanye's this credible auteur figure in rock/rock-crit world. people are ready and willing and primed to call anything he dribbles a "masterpiece" and cover it in guff about being s0 ugly and monstrous that it's like nothing else. yet diddy covers a lot of the same ground thematically, but actually uses startling imagery and awesome beats and genuine oddity, and people go "nah, not gonna bother" cuz of who he is.

has it even been released yet?

xp

I can't believe everyone is sleeping on this album that isn't even out yet!

when an album leaks it's pretty much out -- also lex is right, it's not like people are gonna pay attention to the diddy record starting next week

i hadn't even heard about til you mentioned it. maybe cause Diddy has not generally been on my radar recently (and hasn't been since biggie die, actually)? i've been following Kanye for a decade or so, on the other hand, and therefore tend to have a bit more emotional investment in whatever shit he produces. not exactly a big deal/mystery really imo.

no one is really talking about you, specifically

no duh!

that post was a xp to lex anyway.

couldn't disagree more with lex re: mbdtf, but the comparison with diddy's album is an apt one. diddy generally does not get enough credit as an auteur imo.

I thought being an auteur was the ONLY credit Diddy got; it's not like ppl think he can rhyme, either.

also this is some massive generation gap shit:

when an album leaks it's pretty much out

diddy mainly gets credit as a businessman, really

he gets credit as an impresario/businessman, yes, and probably more than anything as an outsize pop-culture personality -- as seen in his MTV reality shows, his "get him to the greek" role, etc. but i rarely see him spoken about as someone who is very good at putting together a coherent listening experience. which he is!

what do we think of the defense being mounted over at no-trivia.com? I think the dude is kind of bending over backwards, especially with stuff like this:

via his delightfully groan-inducing punchlines

but I'd be curious if anyone here would like to pick up any of his points and run with it

I think one of the pillars of his defense is that "Kanye is in on the joke" or that Kanye is self-aware of how ridiculous his album is. I don't find that to be the case but would love to hear otherwise

well, i don't think kanye really thinks he's the best living or dead hands down hah

really?

"delightfully groan-inducing"

what?

"delightfully nauseating"
"delightfully headache-inducing"
"delightfully soul-destroying"

"delightfully groan-inducing reupholstered pussy"

It’s like the world’s going on around Kanye as he’s lying on the floor, drooling, tears coming out of his eyes, snot dripping from his nose. There’s absolutely no “need” for this to be stuck on the end of an excellent, clever pop-rap song, but it feels vital and really puts you inside of heartbreak. It’s tedious and annoying and seems like it’ll never end.

NOW I get why "MacArthur Park" is tedious and annoying.

that universalizing-subjectivity-as-fact thing is exactly what i was criticizing lex's piece for

huh?

clearly this guy is being dishonest and devious

clearly dayo is being willfully stupid

I seem to like and find amusing Kanye's deliberate bad (half) singing on Dark Fantasy but hate it in pretty much every other instance on this. Probably no point trying to rationalise this really.

rhetorical dishonesty -- trying to convince the reader by telling him things are good or bad by treating them as objective characteristics rather than subjective ones

is that more clear?

dan p made, like, the exact same pt in his critique of the pfork review upthread

rhetorical dishonesty -- trying to convince the reader by telling him things are good or bad by treating them as objective characteristics rather than subjective ones

But that's what critics do. You expect him to add "In my opinion" or "I feel" before every remark. I don't understand your complaints.

glad to see you're able to keep above the things you accuse others of doing deej ;)

also glad to see that you've finally settled on a more qualified way of accusing others of dishonesty