Kanye West - Dark Twisted Fantasy

i love it when Yeezy sings out of tune. it's like my favorite shit on the record ("and then they make noyoyoyoyoyoyooooooze")

okay no, that line is fucking bullshit and should never have made it onto the final pressing; actually that whole song is hot steaming garbage

what is "this approach"? bad singing in general? trying to sing out of one's range? i mean that's pretty vague. (xpost)

You keep referencing Kanye's shouted bridge as being mumbly, incomprehensible and out of tune. It isn't out of tune; it's not particularly pretty but it's in tune. He's kind of indistinct on the first iteration but he's not only pretty clear on the second go around, the cymbals in the drumbeat which are floating around in the same space as his voice drop out, making him stand out very clearly. Ergo, I'm not hearing what you're hearing and your criticism sounds to me like there's something else that annoys you about that section that you either haven't examined or don't know how to talk about.

basically i can never criticize anyone's singing ever unless i listen to nothing but Mariah type ish? you should know better than anyone that's a stupid wall to put up, DJP.

I never actually make this argument, you know. Stop trying to force it on me because it only makes you look like both an idiot and a jackass.

i never said it was out of tune! talk about putting words in people's mouths!

do you actually know what "trying to sing out of one's range" means/sounds like

because if not, you should stop using that phrase

it's not particularly pretty but it's in tune.

would randy jackson call it "pitchy"?

I was interpreting "Why does this approach irritate you here more than it does in other contexts?" as saying that we've isolated proven instances of me loving mumbly clumsily enunciated singing, which we haven't, and even if we had, how does that make it invalid for me to dislike it here?

i guess i meant, per whiney's phrasing, "out of his limitations," rather than "out of his range." sorry.

like literally all i've said is it's my least favorite part of the song/album, and people are arguing with it like i told them they're obliged to feel the same way.

technical terminology and taste aside, i don't know how someone would be shocked to hear another person say Kanye's reach exceeded his grasp on that part.

yeah i was actually just thinking a minute ago that how you feel about this album probably comes down to whether the sentence "his reach exceeds his grasp" reads like praise or criticism to you.

would randy jackson call it "pitchy"?

Probably, but Randy calls everything pitchy.

I was interpreting "Why does this approach irritate you here more than it does in other contexts?" as saying that we've isolated proven instances of me loving mumbly clumsily enunciated singing, which we haven't, and even if we had, how does that make it invalid for me to dislike it here?

I didn't say it was invalid, I asked what made this different...?

Are we not allowed to ask each other why we like or dislike specific things anymore? Is everything an attack?

tbf you were following Whiney's obv trolling re: SY

the problem is some dude is conflating "kanye can't hit r. kelly notes" with "kanye wishes he could hit r. kelly notes." It's a very deliberate aesthetic choice

um, hasn't kanye admitted he wishes he was a better singer?

I am a different person from Whiney, is the thing. I was trying to ask what I thought was a non-contentious question to stimulate some actual conversation but apparently those days on ILM are gone and there's no point in even trying anymore.

I was interpreting "Why does this approach irritate you here more than it does in other contexts?" as saying that we've isolated proven instances of me loving mumbly clumsily enunciated singing, which we haven't, and even if we had, how does that make it invalid for me to dislike it here?

I didn't say it was invalid, I asked what made this different...?

Are we not allowed to ask each other why we like or dislike specific things anymore? Is everything an attack?

― BO (DJP), Friday, December 10, 2010 2:21 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

different from what? the ad hominem example of ooh i like Sonic Youth, those guys can't sing! why is the burden of proof on me to find an example of Kim Gordon mumbling incoherently but DONE RIGHT and here's why when I didn't even bring them up?

Yep, no point in trying.

DJP i was responding to your original question but characterizing Whiney's argument (that you seemed to have no problem with) as a "stupid wall to put up," that's not the same as calling you stupid and i'm sorry if you took it that way.

i don't think i said a single particularly contentious thing in this argument?! don't drag my name into it because you and al ship are all rock em sock bro bots

all i'm saying dude, is this question

"Why does this approach irritate you here more than it does in other contexts?"

what is "this approach" and what are the "other contexts"? it hasn't been defined in any meaningful way but you treated it as the most reasonable question in the world.

whiney the totally useless and misleading "bwaha you like sonic youth" thing was all you

i think he means the approach of not enunciating and other context being other songs in history

again, I think a Daniel Johnston fan saying Kanye sounds criminally inept would be infinitely more on point than SY, who are all about ironic detachment and sounding droll - they really don't go for big emotional vocal climaxes

sorry, that should be "I think calling bullshit on a Daniel Johnston fan saying Kanye sounds criminally inept..."

Would it have made any difference if I'd said "why do you hate Kanye's singing on that line, since it doesn't really seem THAT bad particularly in relation to other things on the album like 'Dark Fantasy'?" Because those were really the examples I was thinking of; the wider point of other mumbly/indistinct singers was floating out there as an expansion point for the conversation.

xp: or what J0rdan said, unless you're just saying that you hate all singers which mumble which is totally fine and something that can be said without strawmanning and being hilariously defensive.

"why do you hate Kanye's singing on that line, since it doesn't really seem THAT bad particularly in relation to other things on the album like 'Dark Fantasy'?"

You're right that technical proficiency isn't the whole picture, but is it that hard to grasp that coming up short on the big money moment of an emotional American Idol-style ballad could rankle a listener more than in less consequential-to-the-song instances?

The subjective thing that no one wants to talk about or interrogate or discuss is the "coming up short" part. I keep asking "Why do you think he came up short there?" and the response I'm getting is "BECAUSE HE DID STOP ATTACKING ME"

well what did you mean by "it isn't pretty"?

I mean he's shouting; you can hear vocal strain in the notes he's hitting.

well then

...

I should have deleted this board when I had the chance

I've learned a lot about life.

Would it have made any difference if I'd said "why do you hate Kanye's singing on that line, since it doesn't really seem THAT bad particularly in relation to other things on the album like 'Dark Fantasy'?" Because those were really the examples I was thinking of; the wider point of other mumbly/indistinct singers was floating out there as an expansion point for the conversation.

xp: or what J0rdan said, unless you're just saying that you hate all singers which mumble which is totally fine and something that can be said without strawmanning and being hilariously defensive.

― BO (DJP), Friday, December 10, 2010 2:30 PM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i've criticized a lot of the other vocal moments on the album on similar grounds -- specifically the line in "Monster" after the Napoleon Dynamite impression when he's rapping, not singing, but kind of grumbles intelligibly in a similar way. and i hate the sing-song flow on "Dark Fantasy" as much as you. i wouldn't say that those parts don't bother me just because I said the "Runaway" part is the nadir of the album instead of that.

Ha, okay. I can't fathom hating anything on the album as much as I hate "Dark Fantasy" tbh; there something especially galling about talking about how nice your flow is and then immediately pulling out that garbage (not to mention the "seance"/"parENCE" couplet). I pretty much thought I was going to hate the entire album up until "Power".

yeah you won't catching me defending that song. it'd be better without the constant muppet choir interruptions, but even without them it'd be a pretty average Kanye rap song.

i almost feel like the first 2 tracks exist to make "Power" sound bigger and better than i thought it was before

actually since I apparently keep attempting to blot "Devil in a New Dress" from my memory, I actually hate that one more; at least I can laugh at "Dark Fantasy"

i like dark fantasy for sounding like rza

it does? i was kinda surprised when i found out he was involved in that track.

i mean there's a 'generic 90s rap piano loop' feel to it but nothing that jumped out to me as very rza-sounding

uh, the fact that the loop closes in on itself with no crossover is a very RZA thing (or a very muggs thing)

the fact that ye can't this the notes it makes it more human, period.

for some reason i always think ilx is above this lame "this record is flawed but you know what, human beings are flawed WHOA" stuff

did you guys not have punk rock growing up?

we had soulja boy

I had punk rock growing up, and I hated a lot of it for being too incompetent and a little too playing-with-racism-y.

(in fact, I am older than u)

the actual flaws in the record, kevin, is that he says dumb shit like "NNNAHHHHHHH PUT A PUSSY IN SARCOPHOPHOHGPGS" not that he's up on Jagjaguwar shit and knows that sometimes leaving in imperfections is an artistic choice for a lot of modern musicians

that he's up on Jagjaguwar shit

okay, stop

um

next thing you're gonna try & explain him recording in hawaii because he's into underwater peoples