Kanye West - Dark Twisted Fantasy

yeah that rings true for me, all the stuff that used to beside the point or subtext with Kanye records is now the whole thing, and what I used to feel like was the content or the substance or the entertainment value is mostly gone. (xpost to da croupier)

at some point i want to cull all the random albums MBDTF has been compared to in this thread and elsewhere and make a poll

I think the trick might be that the qualities that were always evident are just newly the selling point (either because he's highlighting it more or because there's less other stuff to praise him for).

yes i'd totally agree with this.

a lot of what people are praising this record for doing, i'm like...did you not notice it before? have you heard his other albums?

which is what makes it an empty selling point in my eyes

I totally see where you are going lex, but just because this stuff has been done over the course of his other albums doesn't negate the worthiness of this one - I mean, its how he combines and approaches those tactics that make this worth hearing, imho.

at some point i want to cull all the random albums MBDTF has been compared to in this thread

The running theme (aside from like Be Here Now) is that these are all albums that could be experienced as the spewing of an internal crisis for the artist, but they don't HAVE to be. Rumours is a big ol' album of emotional hits with a great backstory, but Lindsey Buckingham doesn't rhyme "Stevie Nicks" with "eat a bag of dicks" on it. There's A Riot Goin' On taps into a cultural anomie far beyond Sly's drug issues. I can see how Kanye's megalomania and self-obsession is indicative of the times, but I don't see it encapsulate it. For people to be throwing around Classic 5 Star A stuff, I'd like to hear how this album transcends Kanye's kanyeosity. Sure, his grandeur and daringness is striking compared to other pop stars today, but there's gotta be more to Importance than Self-Importance.

I'm not saying there isn't a broader context to enjoy MBDTF on, FYI. Only played it once or twice so far - it's possible that Gil Scott-Heron outsourcing at the end actually ties in to the preceding tracks in a rewarding way. I'm just not seeing it in all the banal, superficial praise I'm seeing in the rave reviews.

hope gil gets a good check out of this album

riot goin' on is an especially weird comparison to me because that records weird hermetic inward minimalism is like the total opposite of this records LOOK AT ME show-offy quality

only the drugs, ma'am. only the drugs.

how is solipsism, broadcast for the world to see, not a hugely accurate encapsulation of 'these times'?

im not saying its enjoyable but it seems extremely apropos for this era

i guess i agree MBDTF sounds pretty cokey too but only in the boring way

― lex lex lex lex lex on the track BOW (lex pretend), Wednesday, December 1, 2010 1:25 PM (42 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

dude everything doesnt require a value judgement. we get that you dont like the album

how is solipsism, broadcast for the world to see, not a hugely accurate encapsulation of 'these times'?

because it's more like a symptom than a description of the disease?

nah, lex is objectively otm. and what's more, the further he proceeds in driving his point(s?) into the ground, the more i find myself agreeing with him. let's hear it one more time, dude. encore! encore!

lex is not 'objectively' otm that this album is boring, because lots of ppl disagree

a more 'objective' look is "this album is cokey." the subjective part is "its good because of this" or "its bad because of this"

because it's more like a symptom than a description of the disease?

― da croupier, Wednesday, December 1, 2010 2:09 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

you'll have to explain further. symptom of what?

he is too, darn it! *stamps foot impatiently*

a heavily-praised album that is nothing but "solipsism, broadcast for all the world to see" (if that's what it is) doesn't capture the times, it's emblematic of them.

like, you have "objective descriptions of an album debated for accuracy" then "subjective intepretations of the success of these objective characteristics as successful/unsuccessful strategies" xp

a heavily-praised album that is nothing but "solipsism, broadcast for all the world to see" (if that's what it is) doesn't capture the times, it's emblematic of them.

― da croupier, Wednesday, December 1, 2010 2:14 PM (7 seconds ago) Bookmark

so the comparison with rumors -- if only kanye didnt rhyme with 'bag of dicks'? how does rumors evade this trap?

*whistling in the wind*

have you heard it, deej?

because its way better

xp

i mean, despite the hype of it being the output of two break-ups in the band, it's pretty emotionally varied and could hardly be described as solipsistic.

it's also a genuine pleasure to listen to.

um its not about 'solipsism' its about 'encapsulating times' vs simply being defined by them. i dont see an effort to transcend 'merely' being who you are, being a symptom. and of course 'rumors' is a much better album thats not what we're talking about

i didn't say albums have to encapsulate the times, I just said it's a more impressive accomplishment than making the grandest portrait of your own asshole at a time when everyone's bending over to take a photo of theirs.

anyway, think da croup is otm---and i'm not sure what's difficult about differentiating between something that's emblematic of the times and something that captures them? 'fantasy' doesn't seem to offer any commentary on our deprivatized lives or w/e, other than the fact that it exists. it's a product of kanye's self-importance/navel-gazing, but it doesn't seem to say anything about that---all the commentary it supposedly offers seems to be critical exegesis done by other people. maybe? not sure if that's what da croupier was going for, but that's how i interpreted it.

xp

yeah i more or less agree w/ that analysis then i suppose.

Ye's more Pistols than Mac, re: clash of the class of '77 album titans, tho:

a) agree
b) disagree
c) go to hell

definitely more pistols, in that he makes me want to see the record industry go up in flames

i guess for me its more an issue of his unlikeability as a whole, of which failing to see some higher purpose is only one aspect of this more unforunate failing

but cult of personality/celebrity stuff in general grates to me. but thats sort of an issue i have with 'the times' as well. so i guess this annoys me like twitter?

i dont know what i mean by that lol

does Kanye WANT to be a latter-day prophet inveighing against the hypocrisy of our times?

nah he just wants to redecorate some pussy

a more 'objective' look is "this album is cokey."

isn't this actually subjective, too, unless we know for certain that drugs were involved?

of course whether or not it is cokey is debatable, but most ppl seemed agreed on that. everything CAN be debateable. but if we agree that its a cokey record, then the debate becomes about how that informs the record. just saying "its cokey in a boring way" is like saying ... "isnt it great how cokey this is??" its a meaningless statement unless u look at how its 'cokiness' informs the end product

I just think we like using "coke" and "cokey" in sentences, deej.

http://www.statejournal.com/images/041610052647_CokieHeadShot1.jpg

cokie rock

cokie monster

a heavily-praised album that is nothing but "solipsism, broadcast for all the world to see" (if that's what it is) doesn't capture the times, it's emblematic of them.

― da croupier, Wednesday, December 1, 2010 12:14 PM (58 minutes ago) Bookmark

well, how do we distinguish between one and the other? typically, we look to the artist for some clear signal of intentionality, of critical distance. we don't get that with kanye. he gives little evidence of the kind of distanced, ironic self awareness we expect from artists who are merely inhabiting distasteful personae in order to "make a statement."

but i'm suspicious of the tendency to therefore write him off as a mere emblem or symptom of larger forces he isn't in artistic control of. i see evidence in kanye's music all along that he is self aware and that he indulges, in his work, his worst selves for artistic effect, in order to get at something, or perhaps just to make a sick joke. i'm not going to call this record the rap à rebours, as edward III (perhaps jokingly) suggested yesterday, but i don't think that's such an absurd suggestion. remember that there wasn't much distance between huysmanns and his "jean des esseintes," either.

main point is that my default assumption is that art accomplishes its effects intentionally. or else that the "intentionality" that supposedly justifies art isn't half so important as its made to seem. i think in pushing his pathology forward, especially given how strikingly it coincides with the social pathology of the present moment, kanye west has made a fascinating record. and i respect his artistry enough to give him credit for that, to grant that the things that make this record interesting are the products of his work, not merely accidental correspondences with his times.

http://www.coolcreatureshotplanet.com/images/CoquiFrog.jpg?160

xpost

Does Kanye West do Cocaine?

+Possibly. In new single "Power" off upcoming 2010 album, Kanye raps on the chorus, "I'm trippin' off the powder"--which can be interpreted to mean he's acting crazy due to using cocaine.
(Added March 28, 2010)

maybe a latter-day hypocrite inveighing against the prophesy of our times? but nah, that was Dr. Dre again, wasn't it? ;-/

Let's have a bump for the douchebags