Kanye West - Dark Twisted Fantasy

so were you ever going to answer the direct question I asked you re: my restatement of your argument or are you going to continue playing martyr

so uh isn't the problem here that lex's assertion that this is an album of "rehashes" extremely difficult to prove?

i mean lol @ some of the examples used (breakbeats on mozart, etc.) but what lex is saying isn't remotely like that, and it's not really on him to explain it if he doesn't feel like it.

he did explain it, and it fell apart even further

I haven't read Lex's review so I'm not going to specifically talk about it, but the problem I had with the Pitchfork view wasn't that it was positive, it was that it was playing at empiricism that wasn't there. Nitsuh's works better because there is a concrete subjective argument about why he found the album appealing that works well as value-neutral description of the album.

This is the restatement in question, which I had already reposted once and asked you directly about, which you then ignored in favor of a stupid argument about the word "prog".

Christgau's take:

http://social.entertainment.msn.com/music/blogs/expert-witness-blogpost.aspx?post=b533be49-60d0-4718-b4b3-2bf1928c2e40

i agree with that quote, yes. ryan did that in his Drake review as well

sorry, missed it first time thru

wikipedia page currently lists the guardian as having given this 4 stars

oh wait its the kitty empire one i didn't notice before ha

i mean lol @ some of the examples used (breakbeats on mozart, etc.) but what lex is saying isn't remotely like that, and it's not really on him to explain it if he doesn't feel like it.

― call all destroyer, Tuesday, November 30, 2010 9:10 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark

i guess i kind of disagree that he shouldnt be able to back up his statements like that. if something is vague & leaves ppl wondering what you meant, you should have an argument to back it up. he did & it really seems like an inaccurate description. If people want to defend that paragraph upthread then we can debate that, but i do think that as written 'rehash' of things kanye has done previously is a very inaccurate description of what's going on in this album to the detriment of his overall argument.

the sonic luxuries of this world-beating return to form have no shot at the grace of The College Dropout or Late Registration

This xgau sentence loses me but I love the idea of Kanye as a hip hop Mark Zuckerberg.

deej, FFS let it go. You're beginning to sound insane.

rmde

no just frustrated

while i don't necessarily disagree with (or find "dishonesty") in lex's review i'm not gonna defend it, because i don't think he made a very compelling argument with it, or that he would've necessarily been able to in 200 words anyway (i'll forgive him for glossing over details in a way that i won't for the 800-word raves). i think we could probably pretty easily go through the album track by track and explain why all or most of them are in some way musical or thematic retreads of his earlier work, or at the very nothing it's particularly surprising to hear on a Kanye album in 2010.

Dark Fantasy - kind of a 'low key lyrical opener' in the "Heard Em Say"/"Good Morning" tradition plus the gospel-y College Dropout intro or the kind of obtrusive recurring singing on "I Wonder"
Gorgeous - feels like a more extreme example of the kind of faux-Dilla/RZA hissy lo-fi sound Kanye has always occasionally attempted, never with any particular success, least of all here
Power - as discussed upthread, "Crack Music" x "Jesus Walks" x "Two Words," Kanye even talked in an interview about how he kind of deliberately made the first single something kind of familiar and similar to some of his earlier songs
All Of The Lights - more Kanye-esque in feel (the grandiosity of the horns) and theme (following "Flashing Lights" and "Street Lights") than musically, although that busy drum pattern sounds kind of like a more distorted version of the tom-toms he used to use a lot circa "Overnight Celebrity"
Monster - beat reminds me a lot of the kind of clunky funky Dropout and pre-Dropout mixtape tracks, really probably the most 'old fashioned Kanye' production on the album.
So Appalled - maybe just the RZA guest appearance making me say this but I guess another deliberately sloppy '90s rap homage? I don't really know what he's going for on this crappy song.
Devil In A New Dress - obviously the most straight up Roc-a-fella soul sample type track, some people think the live instrumentation at the end makes it special but even that I think could've been done on Late Registration
Runaway - I could compare this to other hard drums/piano Kanye productions like "Get By" but that would be kind of a copout, I don't really think it sounds like those and this is admittedly one of the more 'different' sounding songs, even if the sound is so basic and minimal that I can't say it's actually very fresh or creative. feel like he was going for a zeitgeist-grabbing "Gold Digger" type pop hit but just fumbled it hardcore.
Hell Of A Life - I wish I could pinpoint one or two specific song titles to cite, but this reminds me a lot of some of more aggressive keyboard beats and pre-808s vocal distortion he was doing on pre-Dropout mixtape stuff
Blame Game - I like this one, nothing mindblowing but it definitely sets a slightly different tone than you're used to on a Kanye record. the obnoxious overlong bit of a comedian riffing is typical of Kanye's first 2 albums, it's just different for it to be actually part of a song now instead of being its own skit.
Lost In The World/ Who Will Survive In America - c'mon, tell me this wouldn't have fit like a glove on 808s. Bon Iver guy is just a new, slightly more indie/obscure model of Maroon 5 guy/Coldplay guy features on previous albums

obviously I'm latching onto some small things or playing up the familiar angle, but I think it'd be harder to do a similar rundown and actually point out things that are distinctly new or fresh or creative within the context of Kanye's discography.

at the very nothing it's particularly surprising to hear on a Kanye album in 2010.

should read "at the very LEAST" but "very nothing" seems like a nice turn of phrase to use here

deej, what I mean (put less bluntly) is that this argument is insoluble. Whatever reasons someone puts forward why MBDTF retreads old themes you won't agree. To my ears, both opinions are valid - there's plenty here that reminds me of previous albums but obviously they're not exactly the same. You're just looking at more and more frustration arguing over a point that, unless you're Kanye West or someone who has staked his critical reputation on this being a masterpiece, DOESN'T MATTER.

wld be curious for deej to go track by track on why this is a fresh and original kanye album

I think where deej is coming from; it all really hinges on whether you think the songs on this album are a conscious attempt to go back to certain songs on the pre-808s albums and redo them, or if you think this newer stuff is heavily informed by the sonic palette but is doing its own thing (which is kind of where I am; to me, if this album is a rehash of anything, it's a thematic rehash of 808s only this time done through a pre-808s soundscape, which is probably why so many people are glomming onto it).

now that both al and i have actually gone into why we think MBDTF pretty much retreads a lot of stuff kanye's already done and doesn't sound particularly fresh or original, it's really incumbent on deej to explain what, specifically, is so new and mindblowing (and i don't mean "the songs are longer"), rather than saying he's not convinced by us - dude newsflash i'm not THAT bothered whether you're convinced, and there are enough people in this thread broadly agreeing with me that your hysterics about people being dishonest just sound mental

lol, I think I get

damn (re: some dude)

it's really incumbent on deej to explain what, specifically, is so new and mindblowing

He doesn't think there is! He just wants us to acknowledge that other critics hear the new and mindblowing.

to me, if this album is a rehash of anything, it's a thematic rehash of 808s only this time done through a pre-808s soundscape

i would agree with this, broadly - well thematically it continues in the direction of 808s, but "more self-absorbed than 808s" is not what i consider an Important Statement. and as you say, the sonic palette is not radically different to any he's used before

as a point of legit disagreement: i certainly dont think this record's tracks are unprecedented stylstic approaches, but i do think 'jesus walks x 2 words x crack music' are all three fairly different songs to synthesize in new ways. obviously a lot of the tracks on here have precedents in his previous work, but i find an argument that this constitutes 'more of the same' to be inaccurate. now that al has fleshed out that argument further, i can see the pt about precedents being a set-up for a case that the ego/celebrity/autobiography factor, the musical framing/instrumental connections, the ambition etc. arent enough, that recontextualizing doesnt do enough to kanye's original musical ideas to make them worthwhile. that i even agree with. imo, those factors are enough to definitively say that 'rehash' would be an inaccurate descriptor, though.

oh yeah and obv al's post, together with a hoy hoy going in on this a few days ago, is banging

um lex new and mindblowing is not the only alternative to 'rehashes of tracks hes done better previously' also djp otm

Christgau's review, by the way, fails to justify his grade.

How is "Dark Fantasy" low key? Because it starts with a piano?

xp: I think the people going "OMG SO IMPORTANT" are grossly overstating their love of the album, but I also don't think that using a familiar sound palette in slightly different ways on angrier material is a straight-up rehash of everything Kanye's done before.

who cares?

Chuck Berry to thread!

i want to make it clear that this isnt about calling out lex -- like i said ive done this shit before, im certain -- but i thought it seemed like ppl were overstating the case against the record, even if they arent as bad (or rather, as numerous) as those overstating the case in favor

xpost: Yeah, I feel a little let down that both Xgau and SFJ, both writers I respect hugely, have hedged their bets and basically gone "well, you gotta admit, he's making an effort". I'm still waiting for that really great piece of writing that sums up the dissenting opinion (no disrespect, Lex).

imo, those factors are enough to definitively say that 'rehash' would be an inaccurate descriptor, though.

you have to realize that this is an irresolvable debate that no one can really win, right? you're not wrong to say what you've said, but nor is anyone else wrong to say otherwise. it's entirely a matter of perceptions and tastes, as kanye is neither inventing an entirely new kind of music nor literally stealing quotes from his own past. the case can be made badly or well, but everyone here's done a decent job of fleshing out their arguments (to say the least). that has to be enough.

the parts of "Dark Fantasy" where he's rapping seem kinda low key or at least not super high energy to me.

Christgau's review, by the way, fails to justify his grade.

Dude's been needing to drop the letter grade thing for a while - and now that he's doing nothing but A+ to B+ it's even more absurd. It's established they're all recommended, so let us figure out just how worth our while they sound.

relistening to this song for a sec -- goddamn i never noticed how annoying those windchimes are, that's almost literally the kind of useless bells & whistles on this album's production that i think don't really add anything of value to the songs

yeah when i tried to read Xgau's new thing i was like "i know you have higher standards than this, stop pretending all this stuff is an A"

you have to realize that this is an irresolvable debate that no one can really win, right? you're not wrong to say what you've said, but nor is anyone else wrong to say otherwise. it's entirely a matter of perceptions and tastes, as kanye is neither inventing an entirely new kind of music nor literally stealing quotes from his own past. the case can be made badly or well, but everyone here's done a decent job of fleshing out their arguments (to say the least). that has to be enough.

― phish in your sleazebag (contenderizer), Tuesday, November 30, 2010 9:48 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

only to the extent that any argument is? some arguments can be more compelling than others & i think its established that rehash is, at the very least, a reductive description of what detractors like somedude actually think about the record

i think its established that rehash is, at the very least, a reductive description of what detractors like somedude actually think about the record

it's established in your head, which it was before the argument kicked off anyway

maybe he should lie?

xxp

i think all we're saying is "rehash" is more accurate and appropriate as a reductive summary of the record than "prog" or "ambitious" or "weird"

I'm more shocked at the A for the Roots album.

i think all we're saying is "rehash" is more accurate and appropriate as a reductive summary of the record than "prog" or "ambitious" or "weird"

― Prince SBanBan (some dude), Tuesday, November 30, 2010 9:56 AM (27 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ok, well in that case i 100% disagree.

and don't we know it

and i think you yourself have made the case that lyrically / conceptually, this record is very different from any hes done before, but whatever

and its not like he even made all these beats so im not sure what else there is to rehash

ignore that last post -- it makes it seem like i didnt read al's & its not precisely what i meant -- really not trying to be difficult here

actually, i think i agree with deej re: to rehash or not to rehash. and i don't even like the thing. much. (kinda feel like i need a shower now. yeesh.)

as far as i can tell, the difference in our positions: i think that these songs are shifting into a new approach for kanye by being more autobiographical, darker, more self-involved, solipsistic, requiring you care more about kanye-as-a-person, more ambitious in terms of audience expectations. I think that these factors make for an album that doesnt really sound like anything else in his catalog. but i also think that these make for a pretty empty/uninteresting record, where plenty of interesting ideas (i.e. a kanye x RZA beat) are buried in the conceptual crush. i guess that somedude & lex's position would be that ... these things ive just described are non-factors? that they arent relevent to an evaluation of the album? im not sure, this is whats unclear to me about the 'rehash' position

i agree with most of that i think

and i think you yourself have made the case that lyrically / conceptually, this record is very different from any hes done before, but whatever

― lotta diamonds ... but prolly more display names (deej), Tuesday, November 30, 2010 10:58 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i almost got into this in my post but shied away from it, but i do think lyrically there's not a lot new here either. obviously the relationship/breakup kinda stuff was done to death on 808s but i think he also rapped about that stuff better on early mixtape stuff like "Apologize" and the "Knock Knock" remix, the character-driven storytelling stuff on "All Of The Lights" isn't as well drawn as on College Dropout, Kanye's done the kind of lazy political stuff on "Gorgeous" before right down to the government/AIDS thing, and the grandiose boastful vibe on a lot of the other songs i think worked better on Late Registration and even Graduation.