Kanye West - Dark Twisted Fantasy

deej it's not a good look to claim that there's a 'right' or 'truthful' or 'accurate' way of evaluating this record and then refusing to let everybody in on what is in the magic box that you see but everybody else doesn't

wrong to you or wrong to everybody

― .\ /. (dayo), Monday, November 29, 2010 7:17 PM (5 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

wrong to anyone i care to have a conversation with? if you think the 808s on the last Chicago Symphony record were too loud we might have problems

likewise, i still dont understand what on this record sounds like a 'rehash' of older kanye material -- certainly there are some kanye-esque moments, but none of this feels like a stylistic retread in any real sense

no, i think that you let your dislike for the record affect your honest evaluation of what the record actually is.

well you're the one arguing it's BIG and IMPORTANT despite not liking it very much so uhhh physician heal thyself

& you and lex have still failed to make a case for that statement

well you're the one arguing it's BIG and IMPORTANT despite not liking it very much so uhhh physician heal thyself

― lex lex lex lex lex on the track BOW (lex pretend), Monday, November 29, 2010 7:19 PM (37 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

george bush was big and important & i didnt care for him either, but i didnt pretend he didnt exist

I still don't understand deej's position. Why does he persist in arguing for virtues he only half believes in himself? Why is he defending the efficacy of other critics' arguments when almost everyone here has politely acknowledged them?

I know we're guys and lots of us don't give a shit about sports and this kind of discussion substitutes but -- well.

if lex can make a reasonable argument that this is a rehash, then my point no longer applies in this particular case. i dont see why he hasnt done so

I would like to hear that too -- from anyone

for the same reason i haven't responded individually to each of the people who've commented on the actual piece

in that case, ill continue to maintain it was a dishonest tactic attempting to overwhelm the reader w/ criticisms of the record that arent based in the actual content of the object being discussed

wrong to anyone i care to have a conversation with? if you think the 808s on the last Chicago Symphony record were too loud we might have problems

likewise, i still dont understand what on this record sounds like a 'rehash' of older kanye material -- certainly there are some kanye-esque moments, but none of this feels like a stylistic retread in any real sense

― lotta diamonds ... but prolly more display names (deej), Tuesday, November 30, 2010 9:19 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark

see again you're conflating 'empirical sonic evidence' w/ 'subjective critical response' - nobody is saying that kanye is singing through an airplane jet engine for the majority of this album, or that kanye west is actually from polynesia, or that he has three penises, or w/e

itt dayo finds out why everybody on ILX finds deej frustrating to argue with

its my subjective critical response that kanye has three penises.

whether a record is a 'rehash' or not is a more abstract characteristic, certainly, but its certainly something that i think people discussing music could acknowledge if it were actually happening. we might think its successful, or a failure, but just denying it when its there, or claiming it when its not? or at the very least, not providing an explanation for such a statement when called on it?

ok having not actually listened to this album in over a week (and i'm not attached to the hard drive my mp3s are on atm) so sans detail - it sounded like a graduation rehash most of all. specifically a lot of it sounded like a way inferior spin on "flashing lights" with the rich melody, strings, polished synths etc. pretty conservative throughout - if this is a musical statement it's far more about kanye going back to trad hip-hop post-808s (which he said all along eh was going to do), not going further and further out into experimentation. and a few attention-grabbing samples used unimaginatively.

still smh @ dishonest - it's too hysterical even to be annoyed by, and it's too obvious that deej is reaching for the word that's the worst insult for critics

also just in advance there is absolutely no way i'm going to argue about the minutiae what i've just posted re: the production, and especially not with deej, just to prevent this thread from getting even more frustrating

also the kanye retread thing was already done upthread, I'm just gonna c/p without commenting on it cause I'm not familair with 'jesus walks':

"Power" is a mess??????

― ali-baba-boob-job-bomb.jpg (DJP), Wednesday, November 24, 2010 2:53 AM (6 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

xp: like, it's basically "Jesus Walks Pt 2", I don't get it unless you dislike both of those songs

― ali-baba-boob-job-bomb.jpg (DJP), Wednesday, November 24, 2010 2:54 AM (6 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

well one of the probs with being a bad copy of jesus walks (it actually reminds me more of crack music actually) is that jesus walks already exists

― questeon the answers (call all destroyer), Wednesday, November 24, 2010 2:57 AM (6 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

'Power' is not 'Jesus Walks 2.0' they're both different beasts and they're both great.

― Moka, Wednesday, November 24, 2010 3:06 AM (6 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

You understand that saying something is "(x) Pt 2" is not the same thing as saying those two things are exactly alike? Rather that the latter follows on from the former?

― ali-baba-boob-job-bomb.jpg (DJP), Wednesday, November 24, 2010 3:14 AM (6 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Music-wise? Well yes, they both have spiralling chants and a funk drum loop. Lyrics-wise? If that's the case we could pinpoint almost every song of his following the same themes.

― Moka, Wednesday, November 24, 2010 3:21 AM (6 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

stop being obtuse, dude

Both of them a specific vintage-sounding, martial beat overlaid with staccato interjections from different samples and both follow the same overall structure, with analogous breakdowns in similar spots. I am not saying they are carbon copies but that there is similarity in the way they were constructed; one could even argue that "Power" expands upon the template with both its busier syncopation and the long note in the repeated vocal interjection.

Not saying a word about subject matter, just how the songs are built.

― ali-baba-boob-job-bomb.jpg (DJP), Wednesday, November 24, 2010 3:35 AM (6 days ago) Bookmark

fwiw DJP comes a lot closer to espousing an 'objective approach to interpreting music' than whatever hand-waving you're doing itt deej

hey dayo, you're kind of being a dick itt!

................................

like, i think im explaining my position thoughtfully & fairly & without whatever argumentative styles ppl are usually giving me shit for, but you're still being an asshole!

okay, this is where I get off the train

sorry if this lands me on your list of 'people who I think are out to get me' deej, maybe you can stare at the candles some more

am i accusing you of 'hand waving'? no, im explaining my position as it relates to yours. am i talking about how frustrating it is to argue with someone who keeps talking shit about me while he argues?

so now you're calling me paranoid. yeah you're a great dude to argue with too man.

ok having not actually listened to this album in over a week (and i'm not attached to the hard drive my mp3s are on atm) so sans detail - it sounded like a graduation rehash most of all. specifically a lot of it sounded like a way inferior spin on "flashing lights" with the rich melody, strings, polished synths etc. pretty conservative throughout - if this is a musical statement it's far more about kanye going back to trad hip-hop post-808s (which he said all along eh was going to do), not going further and further out into experimentation. and a few attention-grabbing samples used unimaginatively.

― lex lex lex lex lex on the track BOW (lex pretend), Monday, November 29, 2010 7:32 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i dont know how a minimal track like i.e. 'monster' sounds like flashing lights. or how a song like 'power' sounds like it either. i agree that the record is somewhat conservative, certainly, but i dont think that translates as a rehash of things kanye has done previously. i agree that this is more focused on 'trad hip-hop,' or at the very least, incorporating trad hip hop, but it doesnt really sound like traditional kanye songs to me at all. hes a lot less funny, the music is a lot darker, its much more autobiographical. the songs are much longer.

i dont disagree that if ppl are pushing a line about 'experimentation' they might be overstating it. but it does seem like he's definitively moved in a different direction for this record than any of his others, for better and for worse.

in conclusion, i think that we are listening to different albums

and also, fuck dayo for being a hypocritical dipshit

B-)

i think im explaining my position thoughtfully & fairly & without whatever argumentative styles ppl are usually giving me shit for, but you're still being an asshole!

the argument styles that people usually give you shit for are "inflexibly, all the time and about everything"

hey deej I agree with you

it seems like theres a crit consensus that you're wrong here

but that's just because no one has said they agree with you

so I'm just saying it

peace brother

no, its ad hominems. i really dont see what the issue was with my posting in this thread until i called dayo out for being a dick

xp

do agree that it's perfectly reasonable to say that someone is wrong about an album's musical qualities (say, for instance, the idea that kanye is rehashing his past achievements), even if those qualities are hard to define objectively. the onus at that point, however, is on you to make the case.

saying that someone is being "dishonest" about it opens a whole different can of worms, and is much harder to justify with appeals to your own rhetorical fair-mindedness.

why has ghostface killah never made a christmas album?

too Muslim iirc

lame.

omg there needs to be a mariah ft. ghostface xmas single

(all xmas music these days has to revolve around mariah, that's the rule)

reread this argument, im still right & you guys are being jerks

http://natashatynes.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/delivering-flowers1.jpg

so were you ever going to answer the direct question I asked you re: my restatement of your argument or are you going to continue playing martyr

so uh isn't the problem here that lex's assertion that this is an album of "rehashes" extremely difficult to prove?

i mean lol @ some of the examples used (breakbeats on mozart, etc.) but what lex is saying isn't remotely like that, and it's not really on him to explain it if he doesn't feel like it.

he did explain it, and it fell apart even further

I haven't read Lex's review so I'm not going to specifically talk about it, but the problem I had with the Pitchfork view wasn't that it was positive, it was that it was playing at empiricism that wasn't there. Nitsuh's works better because there is a concrete subjective argument about why he found the album appealing that works well as value-neutral description of the album.

This is the restatement in question, which I had already reposted once and asked you directly about, which you then ignored in favor of a stupid argument about the word "prog".

Christgau's take:

http://social.entertainment.msn.com/music/blogs/expert-witness-blogpost.aspx?post=b533be49-60d0-4718-b4b3-2bf1928c2e40

i agree with that quote, yes. ryan did that in his Drake review as well

sorry, missed it first time thru

wikipedia page currently lists the guardian as having given this 4 stars

oh wait its the kitty empire one i didn't notice before ha

i mean lol @ some of the examples used (breakbeats on mozart, etc.) but what lex is saying isn't remotely like that, and it's not really on him to explain it if he doesn't feel like it.

― call all destroyer, Tuesday, November 30, 2010 9:10 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark

i guess i kind of disagree that he shouldnt be able to back up his statements like that. if something is vague & leaves ppl wondering what you meant, you should have an argument to back it up. he did & it really seems like an inaccurate description. If people want to defend that paragraph upthread then we can debate that, but i do think that as written 'rehash' of things kanye has done previously is a very inaccurate description of what's going on in this album to the detriment of his overall argument.