Kanye West - Dark Twisted Fantasy

i dont think lex is a hack. i do think that there are parts of his descriptions of the record that i think are inaccurate & unnecessarily critical, unneeded to make his point & in fact undercutting it because they seem flatly rong.

when im not at work ill show which parts i mean in partic.

"THIS ALBUM IS ENTIRELY IRREEDEMABLE AND HAS NOTHING WORTHWHILE ON IT,"

yes, he thinks this but thinks nicki minaj is pretty good

although iirc he thought it was an overrated minaj moment as well

well, basically if you already hated "Power" and "Runaway" there is little to nothing on this album that will change your mind

i gave "power" a generous 6/10 on the jukebox - http://www.thesinglesjukebox.com/?p=2407 - "runaway" i can't remember, wrote it ages ago and it hasn't gone up yet but it was 5/10 iirc. i agree that they're probably the next best tier after "monster" and "hell of a life" though. and they're not very good.

i think power is a 3/10 fwiw lol

I like "Power" a lot except for the "THIS COULD BE A BEAUTIFUL DEATH" closing movement. I guess Kanye couldn't make Dwele sound good twice.

although iirc he thought it was an overrated minaj moment as well

nah "monster" is an incredible verse - iirc i took issue with the way a lot of the reaction was "HOLY SHIT I DIDN'T KNOW SHE WAS CAPABLE OF THIS", because she doesn't do anything substantively different on "monster" that she hadn't done before, so it wasn't really a surprise in any way

I could care less about "Power" when I reviewed it for TSJ months ago but loved it on the album.

yeah as i said at the time my 6/10 for "power" was pretty tentative, i'd give it 4 or 5 now

i get the stupid way they stay "re-dick-uh-less" in my head

this always reminds me of 30 Rock: http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0067464/

Cudi and Raekwon in "Gorgeous,"

dude are you sticking up for cudi? kanye's the best part of that song i think, from what i remember his tightest rapping on the record

it can be great fun to read a wound-up critic angrily tearing some offending object to shreds, evenhanded evaluation be damned. every once in a while, at least. fair, rational and high minded analysis is all well and good, but is hardly the only valid or useful critical approach. problem, i suppose, is that many critics don't wear apoplexy well, and/or run to it far too frequently (not pointing that at anyone itt).

idk how others were using it but i imagine 'prog' being a stand-in for this kind of framing, the 'album-as-art' feel, the suites, the songs being two mins too long. not lots of instrumental solos or something. its prog rap not prog rock

― lotta diamonds ... but prolly more display names (deej), Monday, November 29, 2010 4:12 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

but the songs are just regular songs (mostly) that kind of drone on, i don't even hear that much "mini-suite" or multipart stuff...like i guess there are some bridges which (no hongro) are kind of a standard old school pop writing format thing, but these mostly just seem like beats that overstay their welcome...

i mean the end of runaway going for "Top Gun Anthem" by harold faltermeyer and steve stevens as told by autotune doesn't seem really prog to me.

deej, I understand your position less than I understand some dude/Lex/Alfred, since it seems that you are arguing strenuously for favorable reviews for an album you don't seem to like all that much...?

I like parts of this record but the overall disappointment on many levels gets in the way of any praise when discussing it.

It's like he wants us to acknowledge some intrinsic qualities that the favorable reviews noted but we're somehow missing.

deej, I understand your position less than I understand some dude/Lex/Alfred, since it seems that you are arguing strenuously for favorable reviews for an album you don't seem to like all that much...?

― Yeezy reupholstered my pussy (DJP), Monday, November 29, 2010 4:42 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

how am i arguing for favorable reviews??? what??

It's like he wants us to acknowledge some intrinsic qualities that the favorable reviews noted but we're somehow missing.

― look at it, pwn3d, made u look at my peen/vadge (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, November 29, 2010 4:46 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

no, like i said, im not here to argue w/ ryan dombal because hes not here to argue with, you guys are.

"power" is wonderful, always happy to hear it. one of the album's best pop moments, at least from over here. a couple funny lyrics (and a TON of shitty ones), committed delivery, great beat, weird production, awesome sample. plus it runs under five minutes, a model of restraint by this album's standards. only about half a minute too long.

i can disagree with a review's conclusions about overall quality & like the review (nitsuhs) or agree w/ the overall evaluation but think its dishonestly written (lex's) or disagree with both (ryan's)

"dishonest" seems... strong

lol "dishonest", that's what i expect from the commenters beneath my reviews

link me to your post in this enormous thread. i seem to recall you conflating it w/ being ground-breaking or equating it w/ prog's GOALS rather than prog's CHARACTERISTICS but that might be a faulty memory

― lotta diamonds ... but prolly more display names (deej), Monday, November 29, 2010 5:25 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i was taking it in the broadest most abstract sense because if you compare it to what prog rock acts tend to do on a technical level with song structure, time signatures, harmony, etc. the "prog rap" comparison makes even less sense.

but these mostly just seem like beats that overstay their welcome...

ha! how many post-Bangs rock writers might have said this about prog?

name a prog rock song that works the same basic melody/tempo/drums for 9 minutes straight like "Runaway"

I haven't read Lex's review so I'm not going to specifically talk about it, but the problem I had with the Pitchfork view wasn't that it was positive, it was that it was playing at empiricism that wasn't there. Nitsuh's works better because there is a concrete subjective argument about why he found the album appealing that works well as value-neutral description of the album.

lol for "positive" substitute "nauseatingly effusive"

i was taking it in the broadest most abstract sense because if you compare it to what prog rock acts tend to do on a technical level with song structure, time signatures, harmony, etc. the "prog rap" comparison makes even less sense.

― some dude, Monday, November 29, 2010 4:51 PM (45 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

like i said this was more about the rockist framing in a hongro style than anything else -- the entire album-as-album-art part of prog, not the "hmm they did this one in 6/8 time" (although the **slow burner** kanye / minaj hawaii discussion about taking their rapping to the *next level* could easily qualify)

name a prog rock song that works the same basic melody/tempo/drums for 9 minutes straight like "Runaway"

― some dude, Monday, November 29, 2010 4:53 PM (45 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

rap beats are based around repetition. this would make sense.

the only thing I would even consider putting a half-hearted "prog" label on is "Hell of a Life" strictly for the polyrhythms

so now you're arguing approvingly for a rockist/hongro mindset you don't share, much in the same way you won't bear to let people talk down on the album you don't like that much

yeah rap beats are based on repetition...which is why a "prog rap" record would have a completely different rhythmic/song structure than a traditional rap record, which this doesn't, hence it's a traditional rap record with a fancy bow on top.

I haven't read Lex's review so I'm not going to specifically talk about it, but the problem I had with the Pitchfork view wasn't that it was positive, it was that it was playing at empiricism that wasn't there. Nitsuh's works better because there is a concrete subjective argument about why he found the album appealing that works well as value-neutral description of the album.

I'm just going to repost this and ask deej if this is what he is reacting to in these reviews and why he's bringing in terms like "dishonest".

i wouldnt read the prog rap thing as anything more than a gen rockisty framework rather than an exact parallel for prog. freestyle fellowship: prog rap??

it was that it was playing at empiricism that wasn't there

all of the reviews i've read are doing this! since half these songs were months ago and the hype has been building longer than that, i'm pretty sure most critics had made up their mind about this album (and probably written half their respective reviews) waaaaaaay before they heard the album proper

xpost can't believe you fuckers are still talking about this "prog rap" red herring

all of the reviews i've read are doing this!

see, this makes me glad that I'm avoiding reviews

yeah rap beats are based on repetition...which is why a "prog rap" record would have a completely different rhythmic/song structure than a traditional rap record, which this doesn't, hence it's a traditional rap record with a fancy bow on top.

― some dude, Monday, November 29, 2010 4:57 PM (45 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this isnt logical. prog rap doesnt have to be about the rhythmic/song structure -- it could easily be about a more abstract approach to the music

NO ONE REALLY THINKS THIS IS "PROG"

its obv just a shortcut for saying long songs + self-indulgence

duh

― congratulations (n/a), Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:32 AM (6 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

+ "there's a King Crimson sample on one song"

― congratulations (n/a), Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:32 AM (6 days ago) Bookmark

my brother did a prog-rap track that sampled a section of a Rush song in 13/8; his group used to do it with a live funk band and it was pretty tite

i wouldnt read the prog rap thing as anything more than a gen rockisty framework rather than an exact parallel for prog. freestyle fellowship: prog rap??

― lotta diamonds ... but prolly more display names (deej), Monday, November 29, 2010 5:57 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

see all you're saying, over and over, is "I think this term is meaningless so I don't think you can question the way anyone uses it, that is my rule"

i.e. freestyle fellowship's approach to rap acrobatics or kanye's approach to creating extended rap songs w/ instrumental weirdo outros -- but again yr reading wayy too much into the 'prog' comparisons, imo it was used as an example of a loose rockist framework for pretentious album creations

i mean we can all agree that "emo" is a horrible cringe-inducing term but it wouldn't be wrong to raise an eyebrow if someone called the Waka Flocka album "emo rap" or something

does nickalicious still post here? dude was prog rap to the bone.

see all you're saying, over and over, is "I think this term is meaningless so I don't think you can question the way anyone uses it, that is my rule"

― some dude, Monday, November 29, 2010 5:03 PM (48 seconds ago) Bookmark

no, youre saying "definitions are inflexible & prog only means exactly one thing"

so...i say the "prog rap" thing is just a label people use to describe the way the album is packaged/marketed in the broadest terms, and you agree but take 20 posts of disagreeing to come around to saying so?

it could easily be about a more abstract approach to the music

such as what, precisely, on this album?

so...i say the "prog rap" thing is just a label people use to describe the way the album is packaged/marketed in the broadest terms, and you agree but take 20 posts of disagreeing to come around to saying so?

― some dude, Monday, November 29, 2010 5:05 PM (35 seconds ago) Bookmark

hey man whatever backflips you have to do so you still come out 'right' in this argument

not everything grandiose was prog. sergeant pepper's, derek and the dominos weren't prog, just "big". meatloaf had long songs and a story and the whole bit, i don't think ppl called him prog back then either.

i still haven't heard this record, i dunno, this argument is doing my head in already

lol xps n/a

fwiw this argument is completely unrelated to the actual album and is just personalities deciding not to get along

the prog rap tag is garbage no matter how you slice it. there's no shortage of rap albums that work with loosely defined concepts, that display musical/artistic ambition, that reach much farther beyond the conventional bounds of the genre than MBDTF. and "prog rap" hasn't been glued to them, so why stick it on this?