Kanye West - Dark Twisted Fantasy

Anyway I'm glad he sort of thought the possibility of an edit. You can cut off the song on your own after the last piano key bounces and the percussion loop dies at 5:52 and it sounds great this way I think. No need to endure the indulgence.

The thing is, Moka, I don't think that's the way it worked with "Runaway." I think it was the opposite, Kanye finished the song at 5:52 then went, "Oh shit, it needs something ELSE. I KNOW JUST WHAT IT NEEDS." And this process involved no self-editing at all, but rather self-indulgence. (Because the shorter, and better, single version came first.)

it's kind of the opposite of the-dream's "fancy" - that started out as a three-minute ballad, and terius kept adding more and more to it (the rap, the beat) - and everything he added brought something new to the song, made the song both more complex and more enjoyable.

with "runaway" you feel it started out as a normal-length pop song and then got extended to nine minutes because having nine-minute songs is just a Thing That Artists Do in kanye's mind, but there's no creativity or interest in what he adds at all.

xpost: Sorry I might have phrased wrong but yes, I also believe that was the process he followed. Single version is the one to go for.

See, I don't get that... you're telling me that what makes it an "art record" is that is has their superfluous additions to it? That's art because of what, the ambition?

That's just a term that pisses me off. "Art record." Know what makes an album art? Being good.

― altered boners (rennavate), Friday, November 26, 2010 6:10 PM (38 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yr not blowing my mind here or something ... obvi a lot of people do like this about it, the overreach, the musical expansiveness, whatever you want to call it. they think it is good. i mean if yr gonna enjoy this record thats part of what the record is.

i guess i just dont like criticism that treats a product like a bland series of editing decisions. Obviously he wants it to have this, so you critique the work as it is.

it just kinda reminds me of ppl who would be like "i wish i could hear this biggie song without puffy talking on it"

"man in the high castle" criticism

never seen someone work so hard to defend an album they don't even like that much by their own admission

or maybe i just dont see the pt in manning the barricades against it? i dunno ive done basically the same thing w/ cee lo, archandroid, amy winehouse ... theres this MOR-ishness that I dont particularly find myself drawn to, but feels overhated or something

No I see what you're saying, deej, and don't think my statements are mindblowing at all. But I'm not hating it either. I like it, sometimes a lot, I just feel like it's held back by some things.

"it just kinda reminds me of ppl who would be like "i wish i could hear this biggie song without puffy talking on it"

I think Puffy talking on Biggie tracks is completely different than adding three minutes of vocoder wanking, but I think you know it's not the same thing, either.

that's kind of why i give you a hard time on the "my world of young ppl" tip -- this drive to defend things that are fairly popular that you don't like that much against the meanies of ILM is kind of perverse imo. i mean i run to the defense of all kinds of pop that people think is crap, but only if i actually enjoy it and fully believe in its merits myself, not just because i know some nice folks who like it. (xpost)

i said this upthread but a 9-minute "Runaway" isn't that bad in theory, if he took a cue from stuff like the 8-minute 12" mix of "Little Red Corvette" and actually got creative and threw a bunch of new lyrics and musical ideas in there. instead it's just bland, especially given that the single mix feels kind of overlong and not too judiciously edited itself.

well im not defending something i straight-up dislike, though -- in every case ive seen 'merits' in what im defending, including this one. i think what im saying is a lot more nuanced than that. im interested in this record, because it's interesting, important, and original, seems like it has a lot of interesting stuff going on. Its just constructed in such a way as to minimize the amount of time i want to spend with it -- all those codas, all that instrumental-y stuff is way too draining. its the anti-singles collection, and per ilx dogma i tend to veer closer to preferring singles collections

but that doesnt mean this is 'worthless.' to me, lex's review seems way over the top w/ its hating. as did your snappiness when i suggested that although i dont feel as strongly about it, i thought nitsuh's review was really insightful! my reaction here isnt some tempered-by-populism bullshit, its genuine interest in the albums in question.

typically when i bring up the 'world of young ppl' stuff its more about responding to a generic strawman rock critic who doesn't get 'real R&B' because he likes amy winehouse or something, so i feel obligated to point out that actually lots of normal R&B fans like it too.

responding to the construction of a generic strawman rock critic, i should say

& 'normal' should be scare quotes

im interested in this record, because it's interesting, important, and original, seems like it has a lot of interesting stuff going on. Its just constructed in such a way as to minimize the amount of time i want to spend with it -- all those codas, all that instrumental-y stuff is way too draining. its the anti-singles collection, and per ilx dogma i tend to veer closer to preferring singles collections

yeah see this is pretty much what the people who outright dislike it are saying, except we don't feel compelled to pay lip service to the "I'm interested in how interesting this album's interesting aspects are" thing. Kanye throws some curveballs into everything he does, but now that that's part of his established pattern, this just sounds like a logical progression from his other stuff, with nothing especially fresh (sonically or lyrically or whatever) to make me feel excited about it.

like the first couple albums had songs i immediately was knocked out by, when i got Graduation i was crazy about "Flashing Lights" and thought it just sounded totally badass and different -- on here it's like "oh yeah this is what a post-Blueprint 3 Kanye album was always gonna sound like."

wtf 'pay lip service'??? i just dont hate it like you do!

what is this 'with us or against us' mentality u have about this record?

when you say something like "im interested in this record, because it's interesting, important, and original, seems like it has a lot of interesting stuff going on" but never seem to have any really specific or enthusiastic things to say about individual songs or aspects of the record, it feels like you're just appreciating the idea that it's an "interesting" album in a kind of polite, distanced way, is all I'm saying.

like if you truly believe something is "important and original" maybe you should be telling us where it made you go "holy shit" or want to transcribe the verses and pore over them instead of just defending it from the people who outright dislike it.

lots of 'board regulars' post on many threads and end up getting into different conversations and arguments with other 'board regulars.' occasionally there is a kind of running unpleasantness between 2 people, but honestly when someone says "you're following me from thread to thread and stalking me just to argue with me," it usually feels like they're actually saying "the only reason you can possibly be disagreeing with me on this thread is that you have a PERSONAL GRUDGE with me, there's no way you could actually honestly object to my post."

― some dude, Friday, November 26, 2010 4:28 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yes, thats what im saying he is doing

― challop and a muff (deej), Friday, November 26, 2010 4:30 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

btw it was pretty hilarious how i described a totally paranoid conceited POV and you just matter-of-factly went "yup, that's me"

ok, i love the beat to monster & nicki's verse, i like the epic-ness of the opening leading into the RZA beat, like the mood switchup when it goes into that all of the lights song, really like the bink beat although i did find the extended instrumental transitions between verses to be tiring, not bad while they're happening but in a way that limits replayability. what is interesting about it to me is how ambitious it seems in a way that is kind of late 90s puffy-esque, but in a more art school, rather than blockbuster-commercial way, like he's the mainstreaming-of-indie generation's Bad Boy Records. I think his willingness to take rap & put it in a Album Art presentation context is kind of interesting. It's obviously not something that almost any other rapper's can pull off. i like on monster how he limits rick ross' verse to an opening carnival barker kind of thing. love the way certain role players are used -- the cameos, the all-star feel of it. its the kind of ambitiousness that is missing from pop rap in these 'hard economic times'

i dunno, theres something about event-ness than can appeal to me too. I do enjoy the instrumental outro w/ gil scott heron, a lot. although i think its really interesting what has been cut from it.

i sit alone in my four cornered room staring at mountain goats

btw it was pretty hilarious how i described a totally paranoid conceited POV and you just matter-of-factly went "yup, that's me"

― some dude, Friday, November 26, 2010 8:19 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i dont think theres anything 'paranoid' about it, he basically has been following me into threads & just disagreeing w me to the extent that he even made jokes about it. & i specifically said that i didnt know what his motives were, maybe he just thought he was helping me out or whatever, nice of you to cut that out in order to make it seem like im saying he has a 'grudge'

yeah he's very much a child of Bad Boy -- i often think about how Kanye was so eager to get on that if some other label besides Roc signed him he probably would've tailored his style to them and eventually had them tailor their style to him the same way -- like think about if Diddy was his big brother/mentor figure all these years instead of Jay

i dont see whats so 'paranoid' & 'conceited' about observing that dude often seems to pick fights with me simply because its me & not because he necessarily cares that much about the issue at hand. i mean you even did it the other day, where dan had to pt out that if someone else had said something you would have just ignored it!

sorry for responding to al's continued trolling

dozens of people are clicking on New Answers all the time -- how do you know who's "following you" into threads? i'm sorry but it just sounds crazy to say something like that.

got an eye on both of u

i dunno dude i just noticed that every time i seemed to disagree w/ someone he would jump in & take their side

i mean i told aerosmith upthread straight up that all his posts in this thread were kind of saying nothing and it felt like he was just chiming in because this thread is where the action is and he saw some easy zings -- we all do that sometimes and it's fine to call people on it. but you fight with LOTS of people here OFTEN and it's kind of hilarious for you to decide one person who you provoke a lot or who likes to provoke you is literally following you into threads and starting shit on purpose.

he def seems more interested in arguing w/ me than others -- dont know what else to say here

that if nobody else notices it it's entirely possible it's all in your head?

you would say the same things about me & whiney except that we would work in equal opportunity ways -- i never start picking fights w/ john though, which is why its weird that we have a similar beef thing

exception for politics thread, though -- thats the one place where i tend to take particular issue w/ him first

which is part of what made it seem out of the usual -- like, is he really bringing our disagreement across into other threads now? our worldviews are apparently opposed in every aspect of ilx discussion

i never said that about you and whiney -- you guys totally troll each other deliberately (but of course you don't follow each other into threads -- virtually nobody does that, get real)

aero banned himself today so this is a bit of a moot discussion.

yeah i know -- my fault for bringing it up again

deej is getting a bad rap itt

i think his posts make sense

he's made good points, i'm not saying he's off his rocker -- i just think it's funny how he's filibustering in defense of something he only kinda sorta likes

yeah it is

towing the company line and all, lol

TOEing

yeah it took me a long time to figure out that deej's stance was actually just 'meh' on this

haha yeah i was just alluding to how it was spelled the first time

can we talk about the album instead of ourselves

or at least talk about ourselves in relationship to the album, since the thread is about the album

If you took "Dark Fantasy", "Gorgeous" and "Devil In A New Dress" off of this, I would have no qualms with the near-unanimous positive reviews this is getting. ("So Appalled" isn't that great either but is more tolerable than the other three.) There is a lot going on that I really, really dig, and it's probably for the best that I'm not really a lyrics guy because Kanye is still kind of amazingly stupid.

damn those three songs might be my favorite three & "so appalled" unequivocally should not be on this

the one thing about this album is that i think "hell of a life" -> "blame game" -> "lost in the world" is the best closing of any ye album since CD