Kanye West - Dark Twisted Fantasy

yeah when i read that she was doing some parts in kanye's performance in new york the other night i was like "huh" & now i have no idea why she's on this album

i really hope that she didn't just lay down vocals in la or nyc or something and def jam footed the bill for her trip to hawaii to lay down imperceptible backing vocals on two songs

Personally I'm loving this album still. In terms of both listenability and as a remarkable album of the generation.
I think there's a backlash here for backlash's sake.

Who is the "Yeezy taught me" voice in the Chris Rock skit?

Personally I'm loving this album still. In terms of both listenability and as a remarkable album of the generation.
I think there's a backlash here for backlash's sake.

― Josh L, Friday, November 26, 2010 5:45 PM (21 minutes ago)

not only is this the album of a generation, but it is listenable to boot!

I hate statements like "the backlash is for backlash's sake." No, it's because people genuinely don't think it's a masterpiece.

some trolling going on here

this review OTM: http://cureforbedbugs.tumblr.com/post/1693867778/kanye-inching-toward-the-top-ten

I kind of hated MBDTF the first couple of times I heard it -- production seemed ugly and abrasive and overblown -- but after listening to all five albums back-to-back the other day, it didn't feel as out of place within his catalogue. I'm not sure if that's a point in this album's favor or a point against the others, but I did feel like I appreciated it more.

how do you mean "not as out of place in his catalogue"? To my ears the only outlier is 808's.

i never realized how much the dude to kanye's immediate right looks like the baby photo of wayne on the cover of C3

― J0rdan S., Friday, November 26, 2010 3:33 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

looooool

thats amazing bcuz its the look on his face, not the look of his face

if that makes sense

how do you mean "not as out of place in his catalogue"? To my ears the only outlier is 808's.

― look at it, pwn3d, made u look at my peen/vadge (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, November 26, 2010 4:19 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

I agree, but even so I don't think it's "out of place," if that makes sense.

how do you mean "not as out of place in his catalogue"? To my ears the only outlier is 808's.

I think when I initially heard MBDTF, it didn't seem as melodic or as pristinely produced as the rest of his oeuvre. I couldn't detect anything as inherently appealing as the chipmunk-soul samples of The College Drop-Out, the fussily baroque sound of Late Registration, and the bright shiny synths of Graduation. Even 808s seemed, by comparison, more tightly constructed and more immediately engaging.

i dunno i think this album has a lot of that stuff in it, its just buried in all this extended instrumental framing

Not always, though -- you can find it in the extra hooks from Justin Vernon on "Monster," CyHi's terrible verse on "So Appalled," and so on.

The last 3 minutes of the album version of Runaway are completely unnecesary.

Yes, I agree, Moka. But others like it... so who knows, maybe we're wrong?

Wrong for wrong's sake

i dont think their 'unnecessary' in that this whole album is all about that kind of stuff

its not the kind of thing im into but it makes it the 'art record' that it is so

Art is about attenuated songs centered around threesomes, douchebags, and second-rate Jay-Z cameos.

well the 'attenuated' part mostly

i mean dont get me wrong ive listened to it 2x & probably wont again for a long time so

its not the kind of thing im into but it makes it the 'art record' that it is so

― challop and a muff (deej), Friday, November 26, 2010 5:03 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

See, I don't get that... you're telling me that what makes it an "art record" is that is has their superfluous additions to it? That's art because of what, the ambition?

That's just a term that pisses me off. "Art record." Know what makes an album art? Being good.

^^yeah

Maybe I'm missing something. I don't think it adds anything new to the song and I certainly don't find it artsy or intelligent. It's the same sparse piano figure that we've been hearing for the past 6 minutes, some uninspired strings and kanye fooling around with autotune. Nothing more nothing less.

Anyway I'm glad he sort of thought the possibility of an edit. You can cut off the song on your own after the last piano key bounces and the percussion loop dies at 5:52 and it sounds great this way I think. No need to endure the indulgence.

The thing is, Moka, I don't think that's the way it worked with "Runaway." I think it was the opposite, Kanye finished the song at 5:52 then went, "Oh shit, it needs something ELSE. I KNOW JUST WHAT IT NEEDS." And this process involved no self-editing at all, but rather self-indulgence. (Because the shorter, and better, single version came first.)

it's kind of the opposite of the-dream's "fancy" - that started out as a three-minute ballad, and terius kept adding more and more to it (the rap, the beat) - and everything he added brought something new to the song, made the song both more complex and more enjoyable.

with "runaway" you feel it started out as a normal-length pop song and then got extended to nine minutes because having nine-minute songs is just a Thing That Artists Do in kanye's mind, but there's no creativity or interest in what he adds at all.

xpost: Sorry I might have phrased wrong but yes, I also believe that was the process he followed. Single version is the one to go for.

See, I don't get that... you're telling me that what makes it an "art record" is that is has their superfluous additions to it? That's art because of what, the ambition?

That's just a term that pisses me off. "Art record." Know what makes an album art? Being good.

― altered boners (rennavate), Friday, November 26, 2010 6:10 PM (38 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yr not blowing my mind here or something ... obvi a lot of people do like this about it, the overreach, the musical expansiveness, whatever you want to call it. they think it is good. i mean if yr gonna enjoy this record thats part of what the record is.

i guess i just dont like criticism that treats a product like a bland series of editing decisions. Obviously he wants it to have this, so you critique the work as it is.

it just kinda reminds me of ppl who would be like "i wish i could hear this biggie song without puffy talking on it"

"man in the high castle" criticism

never seen someone work so hard to defend an album they don't even like that much by their own admission

or maybe i just dont see the pt in manning the barricades against it? i dunno ive done basically the same thing w/ cee lo, archandroid, amy winehouse ... theres this MOR-ishness that I dont particularly find myself drawn to, but feels overhated or something

No I see what you're saying, deej, and don't think my statements are mindblowing at all. But I'm not hating it either. I like it, sometimes a lot, I just feel like it's held back by some things.

"it just kinda reminds me of ppl who would be like "i wish i could hear this biggie song without puffy talking on it"

I think Puffy talking on Biggie tracks is completely different than adding three minutes of vocoder wanking, but I think you know it's not the same thing, either.

that's kind of why i give you a hard time on the "my world of young ppl" tip -- this drive to defend things that are fairly popular that you don't like that much against the meanies of ILM is kind of perverse imo. i mean i run to the defense of all kinds of pop that people think is crap, but only if i actually enjoy it and fully believe in its merits myself, not just because i know some nice folks who like it. (xpost)

i said this upthread but a 9-minute "Runaway" isn't that bad in theory, if he took a cue from stuff like the 8-minute 12" mix of "Little Red Corvette" and actually got creative and threw a bunch of new lyrics and musical ideas in there. instead it's just bland, especially given that the single mix feels kind of overlong and not too judiciously edited itself.

well im not defending something i straight-up dislike, though -- in every case ive seen 'merits' in what im defending, including this one. i think what im saying is a lot more nuanced than that. im interested in this record, because it's interesting, important, and original, seems like it has a lot of interesting stuff going on. Its just constructed in such a way as to minimize the amount of time i want to spend with it -- all those codas, all that instrumental-y stuff is way too draining. its the anti-singles collection, and per ilx dogma i tend to veer closer to preferring singles collections

but that doesnt mean this is 'worthless.' to me, lex's review seems way over the top w/ its hating. as did your snappiness when i suggested that although i dont feel as strongly about it, i thought nitsuh's review was really insightful! my reaction here isnt some tempered-by-populism bullshit, its genuine interest in the albums in question.

typically when i bring up the 'world of young ppl' stuff its more about responding to a generic strawman rock critic who doesn't get 'real R&B' because he likes amy winehouse or something, so i feel obligated to point out that actually lots of normal R&B fans like it too.

responding to the construction of a generic strawman rock critic, i should say

& 'normal' should be scare quotes

im interested in this record, because it's interesting, important, and original, seems like it has a lot of interesting stuff going on. Its just constructed in such a way as to minimize the amount of time i want to spend with it -- all those codas, all that instrumental-y stuff is way too draining. its the anti-singles collection, and per ilx dogma i tend to veer closer to preferring singles collections

yeah see this is pretty much what the people who outright dislike it are saying, except we don't feel compelled to pay lip service to the "I'm interested in how interesting this album's interesting aspects are" thing. Kanye throws some curveballs into everything he does, but now that that's part of his established pattern, this just sounds like a logical progression from his other stuff, with nothing especially fresh (sonically or lyrically or whatever) to make me feel excited about it.

like the first couple albums had songs i immediately was knocked out by, when i got Graduation i was crazy about "Flashing Lights" and thought it just sounded totally badass and different -- on here it's like "oh yeah this is what a post-Blueprint 3 Kanye album was always gonna sound like."

wtf 'pay lip service'??? i just dont hate it like you do!

what is this 'with us or against us' mentality u have about this record?

when you say something like "im interested in this record, because it's interesting, important, and original, seems like it has a lot of interesting stuff going on" but never seem to have any really specific or enthusiastic things to say about individual songs or aspects of the record, it feels like you're just appreciating the idea that it's an "interesting" album in a kind of polite, distanced way, is all I'm saying.

like if you truly believe something is "important and original" maybe you should be telling us where it made you go "holy shit" or want to transcribe the verses and pore over them instead of just defending it from the people who outright dislike it.

lots of 'board regulars' post on many threads and end up getting into different conversations and arguments with other 'board regulars.' occasionally there is a kind of running unpleasantness between 2 people, but honestly when someone says "you're following me from thread to thread and stalking me just to argue with me," it usually feels like they're actually saying "the only reason you can possibly be disagreeing with me on this thread is that you have a PERSONAL GRUDGE with me, there's no way you could actually honestly object to my post."

― some dude, Friday, November 26, 2010 4:28 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yes, thats what im saying he is doing

― challop and a muff (deej), Friday, November 26, 2010 4:30 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

btw it was pretty hilarious how i described a totally paranoid conceited POV and you just matter-of-factly went "yup, that's me"

ok, i love the beat to monster & nicki's verse, i like the epic-ness of the opening leading into the RZA beat, like the mood switchup when it goes into that all of the lights song, really like the bink beat although i did find the extended instrumental transitions between verses to be tiring, not bad while they're happening but in a way that limits replayability. what is interesting about it to me is how ambitious it seems in a way that is kind of late 90s puffy-esque, but in a more art school, rather than blockbuster-commercial way, like he's the mainstreaming-of-indie generation's Bad Boy Records. I think his willingness to take rap & put it in a Album Art presentation context is kind of interesting. It's obviously not something that almost any other rapper's can pull off. i like on monster how he limits rick ross' verse to an opening carnival barker kind of thing. love the way certain role players are used -- the cameos, the all-star feel of it. its the kind of ambitiousness that is missing from pop rap in these 'hard economic times'

i dunno, theres something about event-ness than can appeal to me too. I do enjoy the instrumental outro w/ gil scott heron, a lot. although i think its really interesting what has been cut from it.