Kanye West - Dark Twisted Fantasy

was a time when only hitting the lower reaches of the top 20 would have signaled the dimming of a once bright star, not the crowning of the new king of pop

― phish in your sleazebag (contenderizer), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 21:15 (5 minutes ago) Permalink

except hes totally pushing this as an 'album art' type deal, not a comp of hot singles

right, so he's not a pop star, he's a fuckin album rock artist

which is pretty much the problem with this album

well, no

he's certainly a pop star

i don't mind kanye, but mj/stevie comparisons make me hate him.

and they make no sense. he just hasn't been a hitmaker on that level. he's come close, but no more so than a number of other artists over the past decade. not even sure i buy that he's been a culture shaper on a similar level. i see him more as a very clear and available mirror.

xp no not completely but there is something abt the proceedings here that scream big-ass rock album to me

Yes, I think with this album there is definitely "something about the proceedings here that scream big-ass rock album," and I think that's partially why the album's received so much praise, for better or worse.

yeah i mean bubba sparxx was a much better bubba sparxx idg why he needed that persona -- even from a marketing standpoint it feels redundent

doh rong thread

haha i was having a lot of trouble parsing that

and this isn't gonna sell that much more than nicki's album apparently, & not even half as much as taylor swift

― J0rdan S., Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:21 PM (7 minutes ago)

I thought he'd do at least as well as Taylor! Yikes!

he is a pop star, but what seems to make him relevant is that he manages to bridge the gap between the last decade or so of "reality" stars who generate nothing more than they own brand identities and our received ideas of what pop stardom is supposed to be ("important" in the dylan/mj sense).

and yes, this is definitely an aor-style "big rock album," just like the love below was. probably why i like them both so much. tusk!

and yes, this is definitely an aor-style "big rock album," just like the love below was. probably why i like them both so much. tusk!

― phish in your sleazebag (contenderizer), Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:32 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

If you talk to a rock critic, they'll always say they like The Love Below more; rap critics will say they like Speakerboxxx more. I think that speaks volumes.

(And of course I'm generalizing here.)

oh for the love of god don't mention 'the love below'

Flying Lotus
flyinglotus Flying Lotus
kanye is so good at being just good enough.

you could maybe argue that the rush to embrace this album represents a retreat to a kind of aesthetic morality (important! visionary! risky! real! progressive!) in response to a pop culture that's become a bit too satisfied with pop artifice and superficiality. hence n's fascination with the grime beneath the polish.

not "hence" so much as "for example"

wtf hence, anyway? what kind of word is that? it doesn't even look right. hence.

and this isn't gonna sell that much more than nicki's album apparently, & not even half as much as taylor swift

Jumping back to this here (and maybe this has been discussed since, busy at work and can't really keep up with this thread), but didn't 808s get off to a slow sales start?

I thought he'd do at least as well as Taylor! Yikes!

― markers, Tuesday, November 23, 2010 3:30 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark

didnt she outsell the entire top 49 combined the week she went number 1?

ill be honestly surprised if he does worse than nicki. maybe a gender gap in downloading lps manifests here?

somehow I am not at all surprised that it looks like the black egomaniac is going to be outsold by the wholesome white girl he shamed on national television

well to be fair she was selling more than he ever has even before the vmas thing

yeah markers is trippin -- 'speak now''s first week numbers are the highest since carter III & will probably be the most for another few years or so

you could maybe argue that the rush to embrace this album represents a retreat to a kind of aesthetic morality (important! visionary! risky! real! progressive!) in response to a pop culture that's become a bit too satisfied with pop artifice and superficiality. hence n's fascination with the grime beneath the polish.

― phish in your sleazebag (contenderizer), Tuesday, November 23, 2010 3:49 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark

i don't think this is a retreat btw -- people have always been enamored w/ this kind of stuff

how many copies did graduation sell? im seriously vv surprised hes supposedly going to sell so many fewer copies of this than speak now

wikipedia sez 2,166,000

in the us

holy shit, alright, yeah, fearless had 6 mil + in the US, discussion over

Why is that so surprising to you markers? Genuinely curious. I would have thought it'd be pretty obvious that T-Swift was going to obliterate pretty much everyone right now.

i don't think this is a retreat btw -- people have always been enamored w/ this kind of stuff

― J0rdan S., Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:01 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

yeah i know. was mentally framing that wr2 popism.

I would have thought it'd be pretty obvious that T-Swift was going to obliterate pretty much everyone right now.

― "I am a fairly respected poster." (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:06 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

also obvious that kanye never really has been a massive pop star as measured by sales/hits. but his brand is "massive pop star" and apparently that's enough.

if selling almost 20 million albums doesn't make you a massive pop star, I'm not sure what does

also obvious that kanye never really has been a massive pop star as measured by sales/hits.

this is also wrong

depends on your metric. none of his albums have sold half what Eminem or 50 Cent's biggest albums sold, but he still obviously is a pretty big deal.

Why is that so surprising to you markers? Genuinely curious. I would have thought it'd be pretty obvious that T-Swift was going to obliterate pretty much everyone right now.

― "I am a fairly respected poster." (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 22:06

i dont really follow album sales at all! but i guess i feel like kanye is at least as famous, if not more so, than taylor and that he was probably on her level saleswise too? but i was obviously totally wrong

Eminem didn't even score back to back #1's until this year.

and this isn't gonna sell that much more than nicki's album apparently,

this is way more surprising than the t-swift comparison

yeah a lot of people who don't follow country or adult contempo radio or read all the chart numbers barely had an inkling of who Swift was or that she was considered famous before the Kanye thing -- she definitely doesn't cut across as many youth culture demographics as he does, seems less visible overall

i'm still playing wait-and-see on the sales this week, i do find it somewhat hard to believe that Kanye isn't going to sell considerably more than Nicki

According to Soundscan / Nielsen both 'graduation' and '808s and a heartbreak' were the #7 best selling albums of 2007 and 2009 respectively. Can't find the exact sales figures but it's a pretty impressive feat.

http://en-us.nielsen.com/content/dam/nielsen/en_us/documents/pdf/Press%20Releases/2007/December/The%20Nielsen%20Company%20Issues%20Top%20Ten%20U.S.%20Lists%20for%202007.pdf

http://en-us.nielsen.com/content/dam/nielsen/en_us/documents/pdf/Press%20Releases/2009/December/The%20Nielsen%20Company%20Issues%20Top%20Ten%20U.S.%20Lists%20for%202009.pdf

depends on your metric. none of his albums have sold half what Eminem or 50 Cent's biggest albums sold, but he still obviously is a pretty big deal.

― some dude

Erm... actually:

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/music/2007/09/18/2007-09-18_report_kanye_west_worth_more_than_50_cen.html

(he also outsold eminem on 2009 according to the nielsen report I link to above)

for the lazy:

Top 10 Albums – thru Dec 2, 2007

1
HIGH SCHOOL MUSICAL 2
SOUNDTRACK
2
DAUGHTRY
DAUGHTRY
3
LINKIN PARK
MINUTES TO MIDNIGHT
4
HANNAH MONTANA 2: MEET MILEY CYRUS
SOUNDTRACK
5
FERGIE
DUTCHESS
6
EAGLES
LONG ROAD OUT OF EDEN
7
KANYE WEST
GRADUATION
8
NICKELBACK
ALL THE RIGHT REASONS
9
AKON
KONVICTED
10
JOSH GROBAN
NOEL

Source: Billboard 200 / Nielsen SoundScan
Note: Data from Jan 1 – Dec 2 2007. Traditionally, album sales see significant increases during the holidays.

Top 10 Albums 2009

1 Fearless Taylor Swift
2 I am…Sasha Fierce Beyonce
3 Dark Horse Nickelback
4 Twilight Soundtrack
5 Hannah Montana: The Movie Soundtrack
6 Circus Britney Spears
7 808s & Heartbreak Kanye West
8 The Fame Lady Gaga
9 Relapse Eminem
10 The E.N.D. The Black Eyed Peas

Source: Billboard 200 / The Nielsen Company
Note: Data from Billboard issue dates Dec 6, 2008 issue through November 28, 2009
(sales data from Nov. 17, 2008 through November 15, 2009).

xpost: sorry I just saw that you meant their biggest albums.

I meant exactly what I said: Kanye's biggest albums (the first 2, which sold 3 million each in the U.S.) haven't sold half of what Eminem's biggest album (MMLP, 9 million) or 50's biggest album (GRODT, 7 million) have sold.

xpost right, yeah

It seems that people under 14 and over 40 are the only ones really buying music anymore.

yeah a lot of people who don't follow country or adult contempo radio or read all the chart numbers barely had an inkling of who Swift was or that she was considered famous before the Kanye thing -- she definitely doesn't cut across as many youth culture demographics as he does, seems less visible overall

― some dude, Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:18 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark

i still have yet to hear a taylor swift song knowingly

well, kanye's done 3 mil per album in the US, with not much more around the world - up until 808s, which only did 2 mil US. not saying he's not a big deal, but he's not up there among the very biggest sellers of his era. otoh, he's running very close behind. again, this isn't to suggest that he isn't a star, isn't deserving, but rather that the supposed inevitability of MBDTF's ecstatic reception is a little strange.

Hmm...certainly by the end of 2009 and start of 2009 the Fearless singles guaranteed someone somewhere had heard something by Swift. I was one of them; I'd barely heard "Tim McGraw" in 2006 or 2007.

of course, Kanye's solo career peaked later than Em or 50, a little after album sales started to slide, but even on something like the Billboard decade-end charts, where chart placement matters and changes in overall sales don't really effect things, Kanye's highest up album is only #42 on the hip hop/R&B list:

http://www.billboard.com/charts-decade-end#/charts-decade-end/r-b-hip-hop-albums?year=2009&begin=1&order=position

well, kanye's done 3 mil per album in the US, with not much more around the world - up until 808s, which only did 2 mil US. not saying he's not a big deal, but he's not up there among the very biggest sellers of his era. otoh, he's running very close behind.

Also: his production credits.