Kanye West - Dark Twisted Fantasy

i was gonna do a poll of kanye track codas

I don't actually know why I actively dislike like 4 songs on here but find the other 7 good enough to more than make up for them, but that's the reaction I'm having

I like a lot of the mish-mash melange of ideas and it kind of cracks me up that Kanye decided that thematic continuity would be best served by emo guitar solos

see i don't necessarily think the framing is that inseparable from the album because for all we know, 90% of this album was done before he decided to give it the weird long title and the crazy gross cover art -- i know i already said this but i could easily see this exact same album being called Good Ass Job and having a bear on the cover.

Is this guy ever going to release a video (and not a lol 35 min thing)? That's half of what I love about Kanye. The videos were all I really liked about 808.

yeah i really disagree w/ that! i think the way these songs ended up is pretty difft from the way they leaked as 'good friday' entries too xp

it seems to me that Al is denying that the music is at all related to the framing, or thinks that you can divorce the two; theyre inseparable & u cant remove the context

ehhhhhhhhhhh dunno about this. i mean, i get how the two are inseparable, to an extent, but let's be real the fact that this is a BFD to the listening public is because it's Kanye, not because he's reached dizzying new heights of maximalism. which, now that i think about it, is maybe what max is saying??

imo all ambitious albums court/curry a similar vibe from people who want albums to matter more than they actually do in the broader scheme of things - the ambition of any given album qua content is mainly of interest to butterfly-collecting types who think about the actual album as a discreet self-contained object whereas in the broader universe these ambitions serve mainly the function of cementing/expanding celebrity & status & most people won't ever really examine the things that constitute "an ambitious album" - to make "an ambitious album" & succeed in communicating having-been-ambitious is to succeed, full stop, because it accomplishes the celeb/status goals

nb I believe in kanye west as an artist & number him among the butterfly-collector types in the above schema, I just think that this particular level of the game - what the acutal ambitions of an album are - barely figure into the q at all except for artists & the nerds who care about artists' work

so deej argues that these two aspects -- an ambitious album as an artistic work & an ambitious album as, essentially, a gesture of pop-cultural pertinence -- are "inseparable"; I'm internally conditioned to have deep suspicions of any assertion that content is inseparable from anything, ever, that smacks of discredited late-90s crit-theory claims to me

also while I'm here I want to say the last blut aus nord didn't really hold up on listening to it this morning, maybe you have to be high to love it, peace everybody

wait are we all saying the same thing?¿?¿?¿

Is this guy ever going to release a video (and not a lol 35 min thing)? That's half of what I love about Kanye. The videos were all I really liked about 808.

Do you specifically mean a video for "Runaway" or a video for a song on this album? Because there is one for "Power" and it's bad-ass

ehhhhhhhhhhh dunno about this. i mean, i get how the two are inseparable, to an extent, but let's be real the fact that this is a BFD to the listening public is because it's Kanye, not because he's reached dizzying new heights of maximalism. which, now that i think about it, is maybe what max is saying??

― BIG MUFFIN (gbx), Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:08 AM (7 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

its what im saying too...?

yeah i really disagree w/ that! i think the way these songs ended up is pretty difft from the way they leaked as 'good friday' entries too xp

― challop and a muff (deej), Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:07 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

besides the "Runaway" single mix/album version thing and the Ross verse added to that one song, what are the big differences? i'm asking seriously, i didn't follow all the leaks really closely.

i know i already said this but i could easily see this exact same album being called Good Ass Job and having a bear on the cover.

AND it would be just as big a deal w/the public and critics if that was the case

see i don't necessarily think the framing is that inseparable from the album because for all we know, 90% of this album was done before he decided to give it the weird long title and the crazy gross cover art -- i know i already said this but i could easily see this exact same album being called Good Ass Job and having a bear on the cover.

― some dude, Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:06 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i guess my point is kind of that the album wasnt actually "90% done" if he hadnt given it the title and the cover art and put on the big ass egyptian chain & everything. and for that matter that calling it "good ass job" and having a bear on the cover would have made it a v. different album. but i can feel myself getting into pedantic college frosh mode here so ill stop myself. generally speaking i dont see this album being called good ass job and having a bear on the cover. kanye takes himself too seriously for that shit now.

so deej argues that these two aspects -- an ambitious album as an artistic work & an ambitious album as, essentially, a gesture of pop-cultural pertinence -- are "inseparable"; I'm internally conditioned to have deep suspicions of any assertion that content is inseparable from anything, ever, that smacks of discredited late-90s crit-theory claims to me

i dont think they're ALWAYS inseparable, but when kanye is a transmedia figure like he is, how can they not be? its a celeb album

RIP Good Ass Job

yeah i'm kinda chasing my own tail here i think

deep suspicions of any assertion that content is inseparable from anything, ever, that smacks of discredited late-90s crit-theory claims to me

!!!

context is totally affecting how we even argue about this!

there is a power vid? i must have missed that, my bad.

they're not inseparable, they're just both present, is my argument - there's a narrative that comes with the album. maybe they're difficult to separate out during the release week, but it's not really asking much of a critic or commenter to separate all that out, I don't think

finally a rapper has captured the spirit of tumblr

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L53gjP-TtGE

called good ass job and has a bear on the cover in /my/ itunes anyway

i know i already said this but i could easily see this exact same album being called Good Ass Job and having a bear on the cover.

AND it would be just as big a deal w/the public and critics if that was the case

― lex lex lex lex lex on the track BOW (lex pretend), Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:10 PM (43 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

it would get great reviews just like his other albums, but it wouldn't be a 5 star 10/10 album, was my argument. My Beautiful Dark Twisted Naked Phoenix On The Couch Fantasy is the "weird" album everyone's decided belongs on Mt. Olympus.

yeah, see, the thing is is that the context is the ONLY thing we're talking about right now!

it would get great reviews just like his other albums, but it wouldn't be a 5 star 10/10 album, was my argument. My Beautiful Dark Twisted Naked Phoenix On The Couch Fantasy is the "weird" album everyone's decided belongs on Mt. Olympus.

― some dude, Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:13 PM (31 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

dude this is some mind-reading fanfic horseshit

mainly I was just gunnin for the triple-stonk from max here, got what I wanted & thankful for it, gotta get back to work now

but "context is everything" and "the framing is inseparable from the art" isn't a particularly interesting things in themselves, they apply to any pop star of a certain stature - they apply to taylor swift, lady gaga, nicki minaj - it's about HOW the framing and the content work together.

i mean, i think nicki minaj is a super-interesting artist and character and pop culture figure, and that framing totally affects pink friday, but it doesn't stop pink friday itself from being a kinda average and not especially interesting cop-out for half its length. it's exactly the same deal with kanye, except w/different signifiers, and the dullness extended across the whole of the album.

not really? i mean i don't think this album is better than Graduation, and Graduation's "great but not OMG AMAZING MASTERPIECE" reviews were more appropriate to its quality partly because it was just kind of presented as oh another Kanye album with a little bit of new ideas but mostly the Kanye you already know. (xpost to max)

so you guys dont like the framing. how is that affecting your pure, unhindered views of the music?

i don't feel strongly about the framing either way! and i'm not saying my view of the music is more "pure" than anyone else's! i just don't especially like the music!

not really? i mean i don't think this album is better than Graduation, and Graduation's "great but not OMG AMAZING MASTERPIECE" reviews were more appropriate to its quality partly because it was just kind of presented as oh another Kanye album with a little bit of new ideas but mostly the Kanye you already know. (xpost to max)

― some dude, Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:16 AM (13 seconds ago) Bookmark

this sounds a lot more ambitious, a lot further afield, a lot more about kanye than about songs, a lot more personal, a lot more biographically driven, more star-studded, there are a whole bunch of other reasons why this would get more critical attention

i don't feel strongly about the framing either way! and i'm not saying my view of the music is more "pure" than anyone else's! i just don't especially like the music!

― some dude, Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:17 AM (22 seconds ago) Bookmark

neither do i, but we're disagreeing about something, right?

this sounds a lot more ambitious, a lot further afield, a lot more about kanye than about songs, a lot more personal, a lot more biographically driven, more star-studded, there are a whole bunch of other reasons why this would get more critical attention

EVERY one of these apart from "star-studded" applies to 808s!

what i'm saying is i care more about the drums sounding kind of weak here and there or the rhymes at times being poorly written or obnoxiously delivered. but those details don't seem to bother the reviewers who write 800 words about Kanye's career and his twitter and one or two paragraphs about individual songs.

this sounds a lot more ambitious, a lot further afield, a lot more about kanye than about songs, a lot more personal, a lot more biographically driven, more star-studded, there are a whole bunch of other reasons why this would get more critical attention

― challop and a muff (deej), Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:17 AM (20 seconds ago) Bookmark

critical attn, sure, but critical accolades?

EVERY one of these apart from "star-studded" applies to 808s!

― lex lex lex lex lex on the track BOW (lex pretend), Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:18 AM (7 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

except that was 'weirder', less of an event record & more of a left turn

not really? i mean i don't think this album is better than Graduation, and Graduation's "great but not OMG AMAZING MASTERPIECE" reviews were more appropriate to its quality partly because it was just kind of presented as oh another Kanye album with a little bit of new ideas but mostly the Kanye you already know. (xpost to max)

― some dude, Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:16 PM (52 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ok? i mean im sure you think that! but its a weak argument--we wont ever actually know how much the title of this album mesmerized ryan dombal vs "good ass job"

EVERY one of these apart from "star-studded" applies to 808s!

Sure, but 808s IS a better album than this. IMO.

well, Dombal would lobby for every Kanye album to get a 10, i'm sure, this is just the time he got the greenlight for it.

i should probably bow out of this until i actually hear the album, but frankly the expectation that i ought to find this album important ambitious and interesting is already making it seem like a drag

critical attn, sure, but critical accolades?

― BIG MUFFIN (gbx), Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:19 AM (18 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

lames like lame stuff? ppl be loving celebrity culture? anyone vaguely art-y gets artiste plaudits. not rlly surprising! esp when he's managed to deliver a record w a context of 'art' that papers over any 'flaws' (& encourages/embraces them) in the name of said art

gbx, this album is neither as good as the rhapsodic reviews or as bad as the pans; it's basically an expectation-satisfying Kanye album with a couple of amazing tracks and a couple of really, really terrible ones and most of the material on it will earworm you to death

Sure, but 808s IS a better album than this. IMO.

this, we agree on

i think this is way better than 808s & i dont even think this is that good!

gbx, this album is neither as good as the rhapsodic reviews or as bad as the pans; it's basically an expectation-satisfying Kanye album with a couple of amazing tracks and a couple of really, really terrible ones and most of the material on it will earworm you to death

― ali-baba-boob-job-bomb.jpg (DJP), Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:23 AM (31 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

generally agree with this except I think most of the tracks are at least good and the worst tracks are at the end so it's easy to avoid them

also 808s was pretty boring

might have to poll 808s vs the xx...

the material on it will earworm you to death

Runaway has been doing this to me today FUCK U KANYE

I'd put both 808s and Late Registration over this; it's about on par with Graduation for me

lames like lame stuff? ppl be loving celebrity culture? anyone vaguely art-y gets artiste plaudits. not rlly surprising! esp when he's managed to deliver a record w a context of 'art' that papers over any 'flaws' (& encourages/embraces them) in the name of said art

― challop and a muff (deej), Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:21 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

haha i dont know why, but for some reason this post makes me think that really everyone was sorta on the same page for the last little bit here.

if pfork hadnt given this a 10 im not so sure ppl would be remembering 808s so fondly