Kanye West - Dark Twisted Fantasy

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i also think its pretty clear what 'ambitious' means Al. i dont know how this is a 'brick wall' to suggest that a rapper making a rock opera w/ long extended instrumentals etc. is pretty obviously ambitious! its not something rappers do! kanye =/= pete townshend! context / audience expectation matters! im with you that its not nearly as musically qualitatively GOOD as most records i heard this year -- im def not ranking it -- but the idea that bcuz you dont like it its not ambitious, or unique, or even interesting, seems way misleading

challop and a muff (deej), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 15:58 (thirteen years ago) link

well more like dude needs an editor besides himself and he needs to listen to that editor

ali-baba-boob-job-bomb.jpg (DJP), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 15:58 (thirteen years ago) link

I think cad means unedited in the sense that you could chop off at least a minute off of all of the songs on this album and literally nobody would notice or care

― _| ̄|○| ̄|○| ̄|○ (dayo), Tuesday, November 23, 2010 9:56 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah but i think KANYE would care. its not an issue of 'editing' when he wants to to have these extended song lengths & everything

challop and a muff (deej), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 15:58 (thirteen years ago) link

ok, so what dan said then

questeon the answers (call all destroyer), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 15:59 (thirteen years ago) link

i dont think this album would really benefit all that much from being less grandiose. im not even sure the songs are there

challop and a muff (deej), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 15:59 (thirteen years ago) link

kanye kind of stopped operating in the sphere of 'what rappers do' back w/ graduation or even 808s didn't he

_| ̄|○| ̄|○| ̄|○ (dayo), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:00 (thirteen years ago) link

the Chris Rock part is a highlight because he has a sense of humor and flair for word choices that Kanye is generally short on. although it does go on too long and the speak-n-spell "yeezy taught me" voice makes it creepy.

some dude, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:00 (thirteen years ago) link

otm – Kanye shoulda just let him have the entire song.

look at it, pwn3d, made u look at my peen/vadge (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:01 (thirteen years ago) link

http://www.theluxuryspot.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/18.JPG

"kanye reupholstered my pussy"

_| ̄|○| ̄|○| ̄|○ (dayo), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:01 (thirteen years ago) link

and trimmed it by four minutes.

xpost

look at it, pwn3d, made u look at my peen/vadge (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:01 (thirteen years ago) link

i also think its pretty clear what 'ambitious' means Al. i dont know how this is a 'brick wall' to suggest that a rapper making a rock opera w/ long extended instrumentals etc. is pretty obviously ambitious! its not something rappers do! kanye =/= pete townshend! context / audience expectation matters! im with you that its not nearly as musically qualitatively GOOD as most records i heard this year -- im def not ranking it -- but the idea that bcuz you dont like it its not ambitious, or unique, or even interesting, seems way misleading

― challop and a muff (deej), Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:58 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Kanye's whole career has been "it's not something rappers do!". so that's supposed to be as exciting after 6 years as it was the first time? are we supposed to be shocked and amazed everytime he does something other rappers don't do for the next 30 years or something?

some dude, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:02 (thirteen years ago) link

lol well some people certainly will be

questeon the answers (call all destroyer), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:03 (thirteen years ago) link

there were a lot of things on the final College Dropout that made me go "wow, he's going all out with this, I didn't really expect all this from the mixtapes", and a lot of things on Late Reg that made me go "wow, he's widening even the scope of Dropout." this just makes me go "this is like Late Registration but with influences and subject matter i'm a lot less interested in."

some dude, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:03 (thirteen years ago) link

i dont think this album would really benefit all that much from being less grandiose. im not even sure the songs are there

"Runaway" and "Blame Game" would definitely benefit

like, the Chris Rock skit would make more sense were it its own track rather than cemented to the end of "Blame Game" (and it's not like he's averse to breaking things out into their own tracks, like the "All of the Lights" interlude and the main song, which I actually think would have worked decently as one amalgamated track)

ali-baba-boob-job-bomb.jpg (DJP), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:04 (thirteen years ago) link

oh boy he is kind of terrible on "All of the Lights" though

(sorry, listening to it again now)

ali-baba-boob-job-bomb.jpg (DJP), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:05 (thirteen years ago) link

"kanye reupholstered my pussy"

― _| ̄|○| ̄|○| ̄|○ (dayo), Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:01 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

and trimmed it by four minutes.

xpost

― look at it, pwn3d, made u look at my peen/vadge (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:01 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

lol

aerosmith: the acid house years (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:05 (thirteen years ago) link

i'm calling it now: this album will top pfork's list, as well as p&j, and will place in ILM's top three -- tempted to say it'll win ILM as well b/c i can't honestly think of something that ppl will vote for on a broader scale

― in a merzbow world, how is kanye ambitious?? (ilxor), Tuesday, November 23, 2010 3:26 PM (35 minutes ago) Bookmark

ILMs list: The-Dream and Joanna Newsom released records this year, plus I can see ilx's own Owen P coming top 5. ALSO bet that Big Boi beats it. And markers can vote for that broken social scene record 17 times.

wheezy f baby (a hoy hoy), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:06 (thirteen years ago) link

"All of the Lights" defines what I hate about his "ambition" on this thing: it's long and crams too many instruments.

look at it, pwn3d, made u look at my peen/vadge (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:06 (thirteen years ago) link

lol

― aerosmith: the acid house years (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:05 PM (47 seconds ago) Bookmark


beat me to it

underplayed junior boys remixes I have forgotten were on my comp (bernard snowy), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:07 (thirteen years ago) link

i feel like people are just calling this "prog-rap" because of the song lengths and the King Crimson sample, there's not a lot of formal or sonic innovation here as far as I can tell (and since when did everyone turn into loujag where that's what gets them excited anyway?). i would be fine with a 9-minute "Runaway" if it did something as remotely interesting as, like, Prince's 12" extended mixes of his '80s singles.

some dude, Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:07 (thirteen years ago) link

the Chris Rock part is a highlight because he has a sense of humor and flair for word choices that Kanye is generally short on. although it does go on too long and the speak-n-spell "yeezy taught me" voice makes it creepy.

― some dude, Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:00 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i keep hearing it as 'eazy taught me'

challop and a muff (deej), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:08 (thirteen years ago) link

tbf a lot of prog doesn't have any formal or sonic innovation either, it's basically just long songs + synths + fancy guitar parts + vocals about hobbits

congratulations (n/a), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:08 (thirteen years ago) link

i just quoted a whole post for the words 'lol'

smdh@self

underplayed junior boys remixes I have forgotten were on my comp (bernard snowy), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:08 (thirteen years ago) link

i feel like people are just calling this "prog-rap" because of the song lengths and the King Crimson sample, there's not a lot of formal or sonic innovation here as far as I can tell (and since when did everyone turn into loujag where that's what gets them excited anyway?). i would be fine with a 9-minute "Runaway" if it did something as remotely interesting as, like, Prince's 12" extended mixes of his '80s singles.

― some dude, Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:07 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

but isnt that true of like actual prog too? a lot of marketing of 'progressiveness' when really its more or less similar ideas trotted out again&again haha xp to n/a

challop and a muff (deej), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:09 (thirteen years ago) link

he wants things to have this largesse.

also deej I am making a conscious and concentrated effort to not be giving you shit all the time because I think you are a good dude with whom I just disagree a lot but "largesse" generally refers to the giving of gifts or money (def. 2 is "generosity of spirit or attitude" but that doesn't seem to be what you're saying) whereas it seems you mean "huge breadth" here so consider this my dark pedantic twisted deej-correction

aerosmith: the acid house years (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:09 (thirteen years ago) link

basically "prog-rap" is dumb but not really any dumber than any other genre name

congratulations (n/a), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:10 (thirteen years ago) link

but isnt that true of like actual prog too? a lot of marketing of 'progressiveness' when really its more or less similar ideas trotted out again&again haha xp to n/a

― challop and a muff (deej), Wednesday, November 24, 2010 12:09 AM (57 seconds ago) Bookmark

yes which is why no band wants to be lumped into the prog ghetto unless they're rush

_| ̄|○| ̄|○| ̄|○ (dayo), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:10 (thirteen years ago) link

but is kanye being 'marketed as' progressive or 'dismissed as' prog, i.e. are the associations accumulating to him thru this good/bad/neutral?

underplayed junior boys remixes I have forgotten were on my comp (bernard snowy), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:11 (thirteen years ago) link

Like I said earlier, I find "All of the Lights" heavily reminiscent of this beatwise:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJRiBDMfrTU

ali-baba-boob-job-bomb.jpg (DJP), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:11 (thirteen years ago) link

dayo I hope you don't mind my reading way too much into your use of the phrase "prog ghetto", but

underplayed junior boys remixes I have forgotten were on my comp (bernard snowy), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:12 (thirteen years ago) link

or, I should really say "influenced"

ali-baba-boob-job-bomb.jpg (DJP), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:12 (thirteen years ago) link

xp actually nvm it was probably overdetermined by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josefov

underplayed junior boys remixes I have forgotten were on my comp (bernard snowy), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:13 (thirteen years ago) link

ok, that was a bad word choice bernard

_| ̄|○| ̄|○| ̄|○ (dayo), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:17 (thirteen years ago) link

haha no, no criticism intended! just thought it was funny + not totally irrelevant to the question

underplayed junior boys remixes I have forgotten were on my comp (bernard snowy), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:21 (thirteen years ago) link

(the question of the different connotations of the signifier 'prog(ressive)' as attached to music, and which ones are predominating here)

underplayed junior boys remixes I have forgotten were on my comp (bernard snowy), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:22 (thirteen years ago) link

i dont like the word 'progressive' in a general sense, the implied linearity -- i like to think of artists doing new things as moving into new terrain, in a geographic sense, and more significant artists are like hills or mountains that shift the shape of the land around them (this isnt quite how mountains work obv but bear with me) -- progressive ambitions dont really correlate to how novel an artist's work is, per se, although kanye does feel like hes moving into new areas, even if those areas are pretty zzz to me, as someone who is pretty tired of those progressive narratives being the ones that have dominated critical discourse for so long

challop and a muff (deej), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:26 (thirteen years ago) link

have always associated prog with technical wankery, which then becomes a general kind of self important wankery

_| ̄|○| ̄|○| ̄|○ (dayo), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:26 (thirteen years ago) link

i'm with ship - i don't get how this is all that prog? kanye's always had maximalist tendencies and made his name with a big, fairly opulent sound - 808s was a huge anomaly and why it actually seemed like a creative thing for him to have done. i mean, you have long-ass songs that don't do anything with their length except drag, and like 50 famous singers on one song that may as well have been billed kanye ft. rihanna and fergie for all the difference they make

lex lex lex lex lex on the track BOW (lex pretend), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:26 (thirteen years ago) link

yeah I think it's pretty funny that some famous dude got dragged into the studio to do a 3 second vocal overdub for all of the lights

_| ̄|○| ̄|○| ̄|○ (dayo), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:27 (thirteen years ago) link

i also like the geo/topographic view of music history bcuz it allows for subjectivity of the listener -- we both look at the same mountain, acknowledge 'hey thats a really big mountain,' but have difft perspectives on what exactly the mountain is like & how it impacts us

challop and a muff (deej), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:28 (thirteen years ago) link

basically there's not much here that's a surprise from kanye, either sonically or lyrically - i get the impression that he's running out of ideas here, not going further out with them

lex lex lex lex lex on the track BOW (lex pretend), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:28 (thirteen years ago) link

i'm with ship - i don't get how this is all that prog? kanye's always had maximalist tendencies and made his name with a big, fairly opulent sound - 808s was a huge anomaly and why it actually seemed like a creative thing for him to have done. i mean, you have long-ass songs that don't do anything with their length except drag, and like 50 famous singers on one song that may as well have been billed kanye ft. rihanna and fergie for all the difference they make

― lex lex lex lex lex on the track BOW (lex pretend), Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:26 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

he was always making albums packed with 9-min songs full of instrumental flourishes & solos? successive posse cuts from multi-genre artists?

challop and a muff (deej), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:29 (thirteen years ago) link

I would say that, narratively, there's a big difference between a band or artist that gets pegged as "prog" early on, and one that becomes "prog" at a certain stage in a career, maybe goes through a "progressive phase" — the latter story seeming to invoke (whether for critical or celebratory ends) a historical concept of "progressive" rock as excessive deviation from the straight path of "rock" strictu sensu, while the former basically suggests that this new band reminds people of old bands they might like.

underplayed junior boys remixes I have forgotten were on my comp (bernard snowy), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:29 (thirteen years ago) link

i dont think hes running out of ideas at all -- hes just coming up w/ ones that dont particularly interest me. see, i think u guys are denying the mountain in front of you, arguing its a hill, instead of just saying "i prefer my mountains look differently"

challop and a muff (deej), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:30 (thirteen years ago) link

you guys = lex & al

challop and a muff (deej), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:30 (thirteen years ago) link

cant wait til kanye enters the jazz odyssey portion of his career

_| ̄|○| ̄|○| ̄|○ (dayo), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:31 (thirteen years ago) link

deej I don't think anybody gets your mountain analogy

_| ̄|○| ̄|○| ̄|○ (dayo), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:31 (thirteen years ago) link

NO ONE REALLY THINKS THIS IS "PROG"

its obv just a shortcut for saying long songs + self-indulgence

duh

congratulations (n/a), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:32 (thirteen years ago) link

I sorta got it but now this stuff about ppl "denying the mountain" has thrown me a bit

underplayed junior boys remixes I have forgotten were on my comp (bernard snowy), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:32 (thirteen years ago) link

+ "there's a King Crimson sample on one song"

congratulations (n/a), Tuesday, 23 November 2010 16:32 (thirteen years ago) link


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