Rolling Teenpop 2007 Thread

"With Love" goes for official ads to mainstream radio February 6th 2007. With Love was recently released to Radio Disney on the week of January 15 sometime.

According to Wiki, the forthcoming album is called Confessions of Love. And the RD bit is accurate, "With Love" was surreptitiously slipped into voting eligibility some time in the last week or two. ("Play with Fire" was never made eligible through voting or otherwise.)

So maybe the post-Paris DioGuardi gets dance? And Hilary Duff has an edge of being ultra-adaptable -- she's got a kind of charming anonymity that I think might fit this kind of music nicely (and I like what I've heard so far). The fact that her voice fits songs like "Fly" and "Come Clean" so well actually seems a little counter-intuitive to me, and maybe effective in part because you're not expecting to be moved by a performer who's most striking trait is, arguably, being such an excellent chameleon.

They've got a very strong Chicago punk sound (The Academy Is..., Plain White T's) which makes their TRL status (or whatever status now that TRL is gone) more a coincidence. Or a broad appeal. Except that there is something very teenpop about their sound - the rushed delivery of super-articulate lyrics, the pop hooks. They remind of a highschooler I know who is quite intelligent, and very precocious, but comes off as a little precious because of it. There's something similar with Fallout Boy. Plus, they've got the word 'Boy' in their name. ;) Anyway, obviously this isn't traditional teenpop, though are they that far off from Meg&Dia, Avril (new album coming out!), or Duff?

http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0037,eddy,18135,22.html

(I'd reviewed Tubthumping in the Voice a couple years earlier, but I can't find it in the web archives.)

They stand out from a lot of the rest of emo by actually being quite funny (MCR, for instance, take themselves more seriously than it's possible to believe) and also being a lot more normal-looking than most bands (MCR again) and, well, they got Babyface to produce their most recent album on the basis Pete Wentz (bassist/lyricist) liked the Josie and the Pussycats soundtrack. The new album is very ace, on that note- it's extremely pop with lots of clapping and sing-a-long moments etc. and as one of my friends pointed out, the single sounds like *NSync.

I mean, to me, the difference between them and Aly and AJ is that Fall Out Boy sound slightly more pop (Aly and AJ have some metallic moments, imo) and neither A nor A has ever got her cock out on the internet.

But I thought "Another Dumb Blonde" is THEE Cher cyborg effect Hoku song? Idolator even said so.

It's a teasing slice of kiss-off pop, and its smart-chick spirit isn't even marred by the vocoder drops that plagued so much of Billboard's Hot 100 during the post-"Believe" era.

Thing with that M2M line, "may not have the blonde hair you like," is that at the time Marit was the (smart) blonde! So the question is whether or not Marion sings that line. Actually, I think they BOTH sing it. (Although their wording kind of ruins my argument, because Marit could very well have blond hair without having the blond hair "that you like.")

And of course by the time Ashlee comes along, she needs to HIDE her (naturally) blond hair for fear of being tagged "light n' frivolous" (Stephen Thomas Erlewine called I Am Me "going goth by going blonde," except he follows that up with a totally dumb (not blonde) line like "no matter how hard Simpson tries, no matter how foreboding the surface, beneath it all she's still light and frivolous.") I can't figure out whether or not Marit is naturally light- or dark-haired, but if it's the former that's another example of blonde self-hatred.

Anyway, the song can be streamed here, apparently (though I'm not positive that E-40 is on this version, since I haven't listened):

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=43383393

Ashlee Wants Robert Smith from the Cure

When she returns to recording pop, Ashlee says she want the Cure's Robert Smith to help with her comeback. After he came to her last performance as Roxie Hart in 'Chicago', she says,"Robert Smith from the Cure came to my last show in London, and I don't know if I was more excited about him or that it was the last show! "To work with Robert Smith would be an honour."

Seems to me that it'd be Ashlee who could give him sophistication in his lyrics (though honestly I don't know many Cure lyrics, but what in the world is unsophisticated about Ashlee's "Say Goodbye," for instance)?

http://www.myspace.com/katenashmusic

Being hyped as the next Lily Allen. Teen enough for this thread, if perhaps not pop enough. Interesting though.

Her song "Shake Your Pants" ("All my girls grab a boy and take him by the hand/ drag him to the dancefloor and make him shake his pants!") was written by none other than Drew Seeley. Shades of P!nk-to-be (or Fergie-to-be?) in "Girlfriend"...which made me finally check out Stacy Fergie Ferguson on Kids Inc.. Hadn't seen it since the show was actually on the air.

There's also some strange feature on her page where a buncha fans call in, say hello, and occasionally submit demos by phone.

"Oh i miss the kiss of treachery the aching kiss
Before i feed the stench of a love for a younger
Meat and the sound that it makes when it cuts
In deep the holding up on bended knees the
Addiction of duplicities as bit by bit it starts
The need to just let go my party piece"

Obviously that won't do it for everyone. But hard verbs and nouns - solid words - do it for me far more than vaguer lyrics where your pointing at something, but lack the words for it. "Maybe you don't
Love me / Like I love you baby / Cause the broken in you doesn't make me run / There is beauty / In the dark side." Even as I write this, I'm not sure there's anything objectively better about the Cure song than the Ashlee song. Obviously a Springsteen song where everything is so specific - that's the height for me. And I feel like the Cure is somewhere in between. Like; let's get some synonyms for love, or at least an explanation of what makes this love more special than any other love.

(I don't think this is aimed at people like Jeff, who isn't comparing Kate to Lily but just mentioning that others are doing so.)

The Ashlee line ("Maybe you don't love me/Like I love you, baby/'Cause the broken in you doesn't make me run") tells as complex a story as any stand-alone line I've ever come across, from anyone, song lyric, novel, play, poem, aphorism. Shakespeare, Austen, Berry. And generous and sad, the story. You don't need the rest of the song, even. You get everything: the situation, her attitude towards it, her feelings. On last year's thread Tim illuminated those lyrics better than I could possibly do, so I'll just paste in what he wrote.

"Maybe/you don't/love me/like I/love you/baby/'cos the broken in you doesn't make me run"

Something about that line is so ace, maybe it's that it drags out the simple first part so much, then all the meaning is actually so tightly compressed in the second half.

Then he elaborated a couple of weeks later:

Thinking of that line in "Say Goodbye", I think one of the things that makes it work so well is that, yeah, at first glance it sounds pretty straightforward, but actually it's almost encoded. A straightforward line would be something like: "You can't handle me 'cos I'm complicated" or "You only like me when I make you look good." But instead she says:

"Maybe you don't love me like I love you, baby, cos the broken in you doesn't make me run. There is beauty in the darkness. I'm not frightened - without it I could never feel the sun."

It's a lot less judgmental and, I guess, more reflective, this way: like she's just coming to understand the difference in the way that she and her (soon to be?) ex approach questions of love and relationships. And she's not sure which is right or wrong (if right and wrong there is) but she's not sorry for being the way she is. And then on another level she's telling him that it's okay to be damaged.

And then, in response to something Don said:

I think Ashlee is saying "we're both broken (damaged, not heartbroken), but you want someone unbroken (maybe because you can't handle your own brokenness). Whereas because I know that I'm broken I'm willing to accept that dealing with your brokenness is the only way I could make this arrangement work. You disagree, so this relationship isn't gonna work."

Wrapped up in this is the belief that the notion of a "fairweather friend" being a bad thing holds doubly true for relationships: that it's only by understanding someone in all their complexity and difficulty (rather than some seemingly unblemished pedestal perfection) that you can make love really meaningful.

I think Tim's on the money, and that Ashlee* does all this in 19 clear words, not quite conversational ("the broken in you doesn't make me run" would be a little odd in casual speech), but straightforward, not dressed in poetry.

I am a bit puzzled how such a simply worded line pulled off so much. I ruminated a bit about this last year (linked here, if you want to ruminate with me).

(*or Ashlee-Kara, or Ashlee-Kara-John)

When the rain comes tumbling, tumbling down, will you be around?

Nicely sounded "tumblings," but the idea is clichéd.

Then you'll see my greatest gift
Is fallin' down and takin' it
'Cause everything is better when it hurts
My biggest thirst
Is happiness in all kinds of weather
For worse or for better
I have it anyway
But happiness can't last forever
You know there's never pleasure without the pain
Here it comes again

Now this doesn't pull together into any stories, and I'm not feeling its pleasure or pain. Given that Kara's a veteran songsmith, and Ashlee a youngster, one would have expected that Ashlee provided raw ideas, and Kara provided the craft and wisdom that turned them into art. But maybe Ashlee provided a whole hunk of the craft and wisdom as well, with Kara providing some of the ideas, or drawing them forth from Ashlee.

Really, there are some bad lines - way worse than these - on the Platinum Weird album.

Think it's better because in "Come Clean" Kara isn't using "rain" as a simple stand-in for "adversity," which is such a dead metaphor. Instead, rain buffets and cleanses. But actually, my listening to "Come Clean" is now enriched by knowing those Platinum Weird songs, since "adversity" adds something as subtext. E.g.,

Let the rain fall down and wake my dreams
Let it wash away my sanity
'Cause I wanna feel the thunder, I wanna scream
Let the rain fall down, I'm coming clean.

Imagine that the real first line is accompanied by a silent, alternate one:

Let the PAIN come down and wake my dreams

- which might even be what Kara had in mind.

(By the way, I think of Kara as the prime lyricist here, while she and John Shanks combine on the music; but I have no idea if that's true; in Lucy Woodward's account of working with Shanks and with Shelly Pelkin [Dave linked this on last year's thread], everyone seems to be throwing in ideas about everything.)

In general, it wouldn't be a bad idea for most songwriters to stop using weather imagery.

Then you'll see my greatest gift
Is falling down and taking it

How is this any less interesting than "the broken in you"? This is possibly my favorite lyric on the Platinum Weird album--whoever would think of the ability to take a beating as their greatest gift? There's something really striking there, in the double meaning of "gift" especially--submissiveness is her talent, her possession, and submissiveness is what she is offering. And while I agree there are some real clunkers on the album (and because they're mostly clunkers of the "crap, what rhymes with cloud?" variety, I'm going to guess they're all Kara's, although they may very well be Dave's), I also think there are plenty of evocative images. Frank, I believe you posted on last year's thread that "Mississippi Valentine" is one of your least favorites, but I like the photo album quality of it, and I also think "Crying at the Disco" and "When We Met" pull together very well. ("I may have said goodbye, but I never meant goodbye / They were only words, and some words aren't true" is another favorite. I can't think of a sharper way to say "but I didn't mean it!" As opposed to "let the rain come down and wake my dreams," which means...what, exactly?)

Also, the line in "Happiness" is "I'll have it anyway," which I think changes it a lot--it allows for the defiance with which she sings that line. In present tense, it's a shrug: whatever comes along, she's happy. In future tense, and in that tone, it's a challenge: hey, screw you, she's going to have her happiness, just watch.

Actually, overall, I think the thing about Kara writing for Kara is that she relies a lot more on her delivery--probably because she can, and probably because she doesn't have to tell the story of someone else's life. This thread seems to focus a lot on lyrics, which is fine, I love lyrics, but they're not independent of the music or the vocals. I think you can argue that, as text, Kara's lyrics don't read as interesting or as strong as Ashlee's or Hilary's, but together with the music and vocals, many of them are as good or better.

Anyway, nice to meet you all.

I think that Ashlee's a better singer than Kara, even if I'd trust Kara over Ashlee to hit a note dead center at 50 paces. Kara oversings. In fact, I think weak-voiced Lindsay - who pretty obviously models her phrasing after Kara's, and I wouldn't be surprised if she simply followed Kara's demos phrase-for-phrase in "Nobody 'Til You" and "First" - would have done a better job in "Avalanche" and "Somebody To Love," because she wouldn't have been able to bowl those songs over. My favorite moment on Platinum Weird is when Kara quietly goes "Your sorrow too" on "All My Sorrows."

tangentially related - i was thinking the other week about how the 'confessions' video completely cuts out all the "does she mean it? is she faking it? is she 4 real? is she being honest?" crap which is relevant to everyone else in pop music, from teenpop to indie to hip-hop, by virtue of her being a tabloid staple (ie the very thing which stops people taking it seriously). everything in that video is meant, is 4 real, is honest, and we know this because we've already read about it.

And no offense to David Moore, but an insight like: "Of course it would probably kill her music career, which too few people took seriously in the first place, usually because they took it way too seriously." just sounds like psychobabble to me.

My hero story for Ashlee has her writing continually self-analytic, probing, and restless lyrics for continually catchy songs, and dressing really well and really outrageously, and slowly gathering a new audience on her own terms; but in reality I have no clue where she goes next or what models she follows. There don't seem to be any. Dance and r&b aren't really her thing, and these days Singer-Songwriter, Pop Star, and Punkette all seem dumber and duller than she is.

I imagine as these (tablodish) things pile up higher and higher, it becomes harder for a Spears to emancipate herself from the role she's been thrust into. Ashlee can still reinvent herself.

But as far as almost all of this goes...I just don't see any of this happening at all. I do think Lindsay has more options and freedom (in her film career only), and that Ashlee is out in the cold. My main point is that her Disney/kid audience is crucial right now, and the recent tabloid stuff effectively kills her shot at "coming back" on Disney's terms (and, also importantly, that this didn't hurt Britney at all. But she certainly wasn't allowed back in the building -- "Toxic" could have been but wasn't shopped to the RD audience; this is the same company that five years ago could excise "I'm not that innocent" to make Britney OK for the kids...and I don't think they'd have to edit even that in 2004).

Another point I didn't really get to elaborate on is that Britney, by being in the limelight, gets to sidestep the tricky "authentic makeover" bullshit that Xtina just (successfully) went through -- so she gets to remain herself. Not to say that expectations of "authenticity" can't ever lead to great music, but that the expectations are idiotic and Britney transcends it, and so does Lindsay. But Ashlee doesn't, and we'll just have to see what Robert Smith has to offer her.

(If Meryl Streep says she can act, is anyone going to disagree?)

Well, this person disagrees.

Anyway, the Stylus is pretty funny - if not a little obvious. But I didn't catch a criticism of her acting chops. (I also read it during American Idol commercials - so I admit, I'm a little distracted.)

Can you please respect my privacy?" I don't know, LL-- can you please insult my intelligence? I mean, really, if you're going to put it that way, why not just put a "Kick Me I Like Swirlies" sign on the back of those jammies you wore to the last Hilton soirée? Yes, there's a fine line between being noticed and being watched, and a lot of celebrity reportage is just a few slime trails above Penthouse Pet photo captions; and of course no one's nip slips or panty peeks should find their way onto the Internet, but pointing out the injustice of it all isn't going to earn you Good Samaritan kudos or bonus Best Buy Bucks.

From Pfork at the time. The fact that rumors is kind of a fun dance song takes a backseat to the idea that Lindsay is really anguished about the rumors.

With Aly & AJ, I see it going in the other direction. As time goes on, I think they will start to incorporate more humor, lightness, and fun into their music, and phase out the acting. Which is a damned shame because Aly is a really great actress.

But maybe I didn't make my point very well which is that since Aly has more depth as a musician she's probably going to drop acting and since Lindsay has more depth as an actress she'll probably drop the music. Not that they aren't both good at acting and singing.

I'm wondering if part of the problem with Kara is that she has no identity, not as a a celebrity, not as an artist, not as a person. When Ashlee sings "I was stuck inside someone else's life and always second best," we can fill in the blank with the idea of Ashlee--black-sheep little sister, desperate to be seen and heard, because we've been sold that image alongside the songs. When Kara sings "so many nights I've heard you talk in delight about the promised land," we're left with the blank, because what is Kara beyond the song? You said it right there in your Voice review--there's no story to connect to.

Now, when you find out that Kara was raised by a religious, right-wing Republican congressman, does it make "Avalanche" any better? Or at least give it the possibility of being better? I think it does. We've both brought up "Crying at the Disco" as one of the better songs--is it maybe because it's so clearly tied to who Kara is? Maybe what Kara needs is not someone to turn her words and sounds into her words and sounds, but just a her to begin with.

Of course, at a certain point the music needs to speak for itself, and I do think Ashlee's music is more successful in establishing an actual identity--the story of that girl. But I don't think I would understand just how deeply Ashlee is (or wants to be seen as) that girl from the music alone. And then again, Ashlee is the focus of Ashlee's music, whereas Kara is ostensibly not the focus of PW's, so I'm not sure how much we can/should ask for PW's music to have a coherent personal identity.

Anyway, back to replying to your actual post: I don't know if I'd say Ashlee's a better singer. More distinctive, yes, and more contained (in a good way). Same goes for Lindsay and, to a lesser extent, Kelly Clarkson. But there are times when Ashlee sounds like she's struggling to sing bigger (the end of "Say Goodbye"), to the detriment of the song, and I don't think any of Kara's proteges are capable of, say, the eye-rolling sarcasm of "Is it finally gettin' to ya? Hallelujah!"

I do understand the disappointment with the PW album. I love "La La" about as much as you love Autobiography, and there is no "La La" on this album. But I do think it accomplishes more than you give it credit for, and I'd love to change your mind.

"Take seriously" and "earnest" are becoming bizarre, shifting code words on this thread, and I'm not following. I take Lindsay's singing (and what I've seen of her acting) seriously. And I think she's a lot of fun. I take fun seriously.

Lindsay brings lots of humor and enthusiasm to her singing, when she wants to. Talked about this last year here (scroll down to the third entry) and here and here, and talked about her acting here.

Comic acting is just as rich as dramatic acting; in fact, I doubt that there's much difference, since in good comedies the actors are playing it straight - the characters don't know that they're being funny - and allowing the situations to provide the humor. And in Herbie: Fully Loaded, the scenes between Lindsay Lohan and Michael Keaton (playing her dad) are played absolutely seriously, somberly, even, and they have to be or else there's no way to care about the rest of the movie (both she and her dad are undercutting her calling as a stock-car driver, and you have to believe in their reasons and their uncertainty or else there's nothing emotional at stake, and therefore no exhilaration or release provided when the film gets funny).

Saw one episode of "Phil Of The Future," Aly Michalka was on for maybe two minutes total, and she was absolutely incandescent.