Ashlee Simpson 'Bittersweet World'

A teenpop star going Krautrock

I would love this. Maybe the next Miley album gets some work from Czukay?

Wait, guys, Ashlee was Gwennish from the get-go and has never not been Gwennish. The earliest track of hers that's seen the light of day - the only one that's surfaced from the sessions she did with Stan Frazier and Steve Fox - is a very No Doubt-like bit of ska-punk called "Just Let Me Cry" from the Freaky Friday soundtrack. My guess is that, to the extent that the people who were contemptuous towards her actually listened to her stuff, one thing that was unsettling was her somehow managing to meld a Gwennish ingratiatingly cutesy girl-pout with the Courtney urge to rip your face off. This would have been a combination that made no sense to me except when she did it it made perfect sense and her lyrics even explain why: "Shut up/Come back/No - I didn't really mean to say that/I'm mixed up/So what?/Yeah you want me so you're messed up too."

OK, I know there's a difference between Gwennish pout and Gwen gonzo eccentric - by the way, a potential influence might be the Jessica gonzo eccentric of "Push Your Tush" and "These Boots Are Made For Walkin'" - but I think Ashlee doing "gonzo" sounds far less mannered than Gwen, mainly 'cause unlike Gwen she doesn't sound like she's suffering from infantilism. But then, she's a vastly better singer than Gwen is. And also, it's 'cause she's not pretending to gonzo, actually; what she's coming across as is a dreamily sweet oddball with a penchant for play acting.

Ashlee's singing is way stronger and more assured than on her first two albums. The Courtney in her has been reduced to a burr, but it's that burr that prevents showbiz blues like "Boys" from merely sounding "quirky." There's a warmth that's absolutely 100 percent there and that makes every current singer-songwriter with a tendency towards "cabaret" sound pretentious and mannered in comparison, even Marit. But "strong" and "assured" and "unpretentious" and "not mannered" don't necessarily make the music better overall, and the strained, torn-up nineteen-year-old who made Autobiography pulled more out of the sounds and also out of the strained torn-up thirty-three-year-old who helped her write the lyrics.

But I also think she's growing up well, so someone else can be the 19-year-old while Ashlee turns the ongoing strains and tears of life into a lark. Of her three albums this one comes in third place, but it's a joy and I keep playing it over and over and finding things I'd overlooked or underrated. "Murder" makes far more sense on the album than it did as a leaked track last August. On the old teenpop thread I was complaining that I didn't want to hear Ashlee Simpson waste her time being saucy and naughty and risque and hiding behind opaque double entendres. It's not that I've changed my mind, just that I'm now hearing this as a nice girl who doesn't get away with murder and doesn't want to get away with murder inventing a wild child alter ego to pour forth wild words that play at sense rather than making sense. It seems sweet and honest, actually. Still wish the words were more vivid though, and not "titillating." (But where "Rule Breaker" and "Murder" come through is in the way sudden moments of real beauty emerge from the pretend mayhem.)

Btw Tim, get 1x livejournal. What I'm typing here tonight feels pale in comparison to what I and others have written there. I hate various things about the livejournal format, especially the nested threads and that there's no way to track new changes, hence threads are functionally dead in 24 hours. And I feel that ultimately you lose more than you gain when you create a protected environment. It's too bad that so many of the smart people decamped from ilX in late 2005, apparently deciding in their unconscious that this board was no longer worth saving, and by their departure helping to make that decision into a fact. But it's a fact we've got to deal with. And it isn't that any discussion there will be better than the equivalent discussion here; but rather, if the discussion does happen there first, reiterating it here just feels like going through the motions; this is one of the many reasons rolling teenpop lost its roll in mid 2007. In any event, follow the six or so links from xhuxk's article.

Btw, within the first fifteen seconds of "Outta My Head" I thought of Gwen.

Yes, absolutely Ashlee is less mannered than Gwen. But I sort of feel like Gwen's mannerisms and infantilisms actually come naturally to her, like she's probably quite a bit like that in real life. Whereas if Ashlee is like "Hot Stuff" in real life I'd prefer not to know, I prefer to think she's like "Eyes Wide Open" etc. (of course the likelihood of her being "like" either (or like any single song in her oeuvre) is very small).

Possibly the missing third term here is Pink, who I think has negotiated a vaguely similar transition quite carefully on tracks like "Stupid Girl" and "Because I Can" (Nb. I never bought I'm Not Dead, so I'm basing this on the album's slow emergence as multiple singles marathon winner - which benefits Pink enormously, as it makes the transition's success seem more assured and inevitable).

but I'm struggling to hear the Ashlee that I loved on I Am Me. She's obviously going for a Gwen style gonzo eccentric chart-pop star kinda vibe.
Thats an incredible description...anyway as for ASSlee, while she has never quite driven me to dark thoughts I've always thought she's been a bit hit and miss and consistently infantile actually. I've seen little points aside from perhaps her debut where she's maintained a sort of progressive move into more 'adult' pop instead she's kept the infantilism and then tried to tinge it with vaguely/overtly sexual lyrics which just irritate the fuck out of me. As for Bittersweet World I really hated Outta My Head then I loved it almost obsessively and the same goes for Murder (EXCEPT the rap) and the breakdown of Hot Stuff but she's not pulling this stuff off. She just seems confused like; 'Am I really doing this? I'm not really sure what any of this means but its hot right?" The production is really hype and I think her disguising herself as a new-wave-ish pneumatic ice electro pop princess might work if she really takes some time to think about it first instead of just squeezing shit together and hoping that it fits.

It works fine for me; the Terry Bozzio drag suits her better than the Jane Wiedlin power-punk.

Am I the only person who thinks the expression, "I was invisible" is completely played in music? I think the sentiment is done much better here http://youtube.com/watch?v=K1AbxBrr8A8 (though of course this is Broadway transposed onto film and maybe pop gets a pass for rearticulating the same cliche over and over and over again).

Possibly the missing third term here is Pink

True. Though I think Ashlee got away with doing what Pink has been trying to do since M!ssundaztood nearly effortlessly, and she certainly gets away with going frivolous with less effort than Pink does in "U and UR Hand," say, which is still one of the more overworked (and unsuccessful) variations on the Max/Luke "Since U Been Gone" thing. Which doesn't make it bad by a longshot, but that's a pretty high standard...

Ashlee has it both ways -- frivolousness and earnestness -- in a way that Pink can't because she seemingly fails on BOTH fronts at the same time. Which also makes Pink more interesting to me in a train-wreck sorta way, but I always listen to what she comes up with incredulity at least and a kind of stunned disbelief at most (and you should check out her full album for the times when the stunned disbelief is a major plus -- "I've Got Money Now" -- and a major minus -- maybe "Dear Mr. President"). For the most part the songs that were released as singles don't really nail the schizophrenia I'm hearing (utterly bipolar where Ashlee just kind of ignores the binary, or makes it FUNNY, like in the line Frank quoted from "Love Me for Me") like the rest of the album. (Literal schizoidness in "Leave Me Alone (I'm Lonely)," which is like "Love Me for Me" failing so miserably it's pretty interesting in its own right.)

The funny thing with that Pink album is that I don't "get" any of the singles all of which have become massive and YET I love love love "U + Ur Hand" nearly as much as any "Since U Been Gone" bite (the best of which I think is Marion Raven's astonishing "End Of Me", which is the darkest of them, and Pink's, along with The Veronicas "4eva" which is the frothiest).

I haven't heard Bittersweet World yet but am going to investigate because ironically Tim's on-the-fence evaluation makes it sound as if it's going to hit my spot completely. "I Am Me" though is bloody hard to live up to - I still wish "Dancing Alone" had been a single to this day.

I can understand not liking the sound of Gwen Stefani's voice but saying that Ashlee Simpson is a better singer really just shows that you don't quite grasp the concept of singing.

Ashlee is a decent singer but is, from what I've heard, both very limited in vocal range and inconsistent in vocal production. Gwen doesn't have the biggest range in the world, either, and the sand in her voice is at a much higher frequency than Ashlee's, meaning that where Ashlee purrs, Gwen yelps, but one thing I can say for Gwen, particularly as her career has progressed, is that she is a solid, consistent singer, particularly in arenas where people are notoriously off or out-of-tune like awards show performances (see all of Adam Levine's recent crashes and burns or the lead singer of OneRepublic completely fucking up "Apologize" on American Idol). Also, Gwen has a better sense of phrasing and far superior breath control.

It should also be noted if it hasn't already that Gwen honed her vocal chops singing and touring with an actual band for many years. Ashlee is ultimately just a studio creation and precious little more than that. And that's being generous.

I don't know that that matters; singing is definitely one thing you can hone without being on the road in a band, particularly if you're a solo artist working with session musicians since every time you record and/or tour, you need to recreate the ensemble's synergy anyway.

"It should also be noted if it hasn't already that Gwen honed her vocal chops singing and touring with an actual band for many years. Ashlee is ultimately just a studio creation and precious little more than that. And that's being generous."

Alex, you can always be relied upon to supply the absolute worst reasons for liking or disliking any given piece of music - I salute you for that!

I don't particularly think "consistently staying in tune during award shows" is the best reason to think somebody's a better singer, either -- Though Hi Dere's purr vs. yelp dichotomy is still really interesting, I think. To me, though, Gwen's singing sounds really pinched and cold compared to Ashlee's; I like Gwen okay, but Ashlee is way more emotionally expressive, way more capable of selling a song -- there's just no comparison to my ears. Gwen sounds piddly, even ice-queeny, in comparison. If that means I "don't quite grasp the concept of singing," then fuck it, I guess I don't.

They practically have the exact same voice; Gwen has the higher version, Ashlee has the lower version.

i wish I had enough time to have opinions on this. I really do!

"It should also be noted if it hasn't already that Gwen honed her vocal chops singing and touring with an actual band for many years."

So?

I don't think Ashlee's a good singer. I don't think Bob Dylan is a good singer either. And he's done a lot of touring with actual bands.
--
I always just kind of assume that Ashlee's lyrics will be terrific, but the more I listen to it, this album just doesn't hold up to the first two. There isn't the kind of poetry that you find in songs like "Better Off." The best moments are more silly and fun ("Outta My Head") than profound.

But the bigger problem is that the hooks just aren't that great. Structurally, most of Ashlee's best songs are just to-the-point pop-rock-- nothing earth shattering, but intensely pleasurable. Songs like "Girlfriend" are made greater by the additions of her vocal melodies and lyrics, but they're all built around guitar and synth hooks that would have made good songs on their own.

On this album, the only songs that really leap out to me in that way are Little Miss Obsessive and Outta My Head. Both are absolute classics though, so it's hard to be too disappointed by the album overall.

I don't think Ashlee's a good singer. I don't think Bob Dylan is a good singer either. And he's done a lot of touring with actual bands.

Did you actually just compare Ashlee to Dylan??? I don't even like Dylan and I'm blown away by that.

My point, however, is that like her or not --- Gwen is more of an accomplished musician. She's put in the hours and she can pull it off live. Can Ashlee make the same claim? I fuckin' doubt it.

alex why does it matter if gwen stefani is a better live performer than ashlee? and you're not even a disgruntled musician so why do you care about how many "hours" either of them have put in

I've never seen Gwen live, but Ashlee was great live when I saw her. Natural performer, solid singer, and she was giving hints on her I Am Me tour of her new direction too -- some cabaret stuff and maybe even her cover of "Sweet Dreams." I don't think there's much evidence to prove that Ashlee is a "studio creation," but she's certainly using the studio more obviously on Bittersweet World (see comments on Jim Beanz above).

I don't think that Gwen and Ashlee's personalities (Gwen solo versus Ashlee pre-Bittersweet) are very similar, even if their vocals might technically be the same. But I'm not sure what "technical" even means in pop without prioritizing the sense of personality you get from the voice. (When I told my friend that Kelly Clarkson's "high" money note was an Eb he told me that that wasn't even a high note for an alto, but we weren't really using the same yardstick. I might be misremembering exactly which group of singer he mentioned, but point's the same.)

(I'm also not sure where the "never tours" idea is coming from, but Ashlee's toured with all of her albums.)

"Did you actually just compare Ashlee to Dylan??? I don't even like Dylan and I'm blown away by that."

They're both mediocre singers. That's why I compared them. I'm not saying Ashlee is comparable to Dylan in all ways.

This is strange course of argument for you anyway, because you don't even think that Mariah Carey is a good singer.

When I told my friend that Kelly Clarkson's "high" money note was an Eb he told me that that wasn't even a high note for an alto, but we weren't really using the same yardstick. I might be misremembering exactly which group of singer he mentioned, but point's the same.

Kelly's high money note is a G, which is pretty fucking high when you're belting. These days, every woman out there who is going to call themselves a "singer" needs to be able to hit the Eb on the staff (which is what I assume you're talking about). Most classical mezzo-sopranos still have arias in their rep that take them up to Bb or C.

(Bb or C above the staff, I mean.)

Yeah, I was referring to what I thought was the high note in "Since U Been Gone," but actually I think I was referring to the highest note in the Veronicas'"4ever" (we talked about this at some point on the '06 teenpop thread)...Kelly gets up to the G in "Haunted," I think.

FWIW I think Ashlee hits the Eb in "La La" ("You make me wanna LA la")...not sure if Gwen tends to go that high, but then neither does Ashlee.

She hits the G in "Since U Been Gone". (She also has severe problems doing it live.)

Ohhhh, wait, I forgot about that part (after "you had your chance you blew it" etc.) (duh).

(I was thinking of the hook, which only gets as high as C)

She hits a D on the "yeah, yeah".</lolmusicnerd>

It's too bad that so many of the smart people decamped from ilX in late 2005, apparently deciding in their unconscious that this board was no longer worth saving, and by their departure helping to make that decision into a fact.

That was me four days ago. Reading it now it seems really obnoxious. Let's just say that when I wrote it I was feeling isolated and under attack, and sour towards some people who really did not deserve it. Which doesn't mean that some things haven't spun badly wrong on ilX over the years, but that I should remember not to underestimate people.

are you guys serious.

Serious about what? Not purposely provoking, just honestly curious.

Because if you mean 'serious about thinking this is worthy of discussion' than yeah. It's an interesting album and a decent listen, both on its own and in contrast to Ashlee's old sound. It hasn't clicked with me personally the same way Autobiography did, but that's just me.

Besides that, there doesn't seem to be a uniform claim being made with regards to the value of Bittersweet World, just an attempt to engage with it, which seems unobjectionable. I mean...it's music, right? And thus, fair game.

I like "Outta My Head" a lot, haven't heard the rest of teh album ("Little Miss Obsessive" is kind of awful), but yeah.. such a wordy thread on an Ashlee Simpson album seems kind of like.. I dunno.

Some things aren't meant to be analyzed to this extent

Welcome to ILM circa 2002.

(I kind of agree with you, esp. re: Ashlee Simpson, but I will take practically any opportunity I see to give an opinion on someone's voice.)

I like "Outta My Head" a lot, haven't heard the rest of teh album ("Little Miss Obsessive" is kind of awful), but yeah.. such a wordy thread on an Ashlee Simpson album seems kind of like.. I dunno.

-- The Brainwasher, Thursday, May 29, 2008

I'm curious, The Brainwasher, why do you think that Ashlee Simpson doesn't deserve to be discussed at length?

IN DEPTH.

Change one mind, CHANGE THE WORLD

I dont really know how to answer that without this turning into a whole longwinded argument about rockism or some shit like that. I just think if Ashlee Simpson read this thread she'd be like "wtf"

No one would bat an eyelid about this level of discussion or a Britney or Gwen thread. I'm not sure what the difference is really.

I would kind of bat an eye. I don't feel like subtext was a huge concern for any of them until recently.

ctrl-f: "kenna" = nothing. wtf?

wait waht

xpost

This is a miniscule number of words on Ashlee compared to some other convos I've been in. Miniscule. But also this is a meta discussion that feels like old territory. One reason to talk about the album is none of us here seems quite sure what's going on with it.

Anyway, as per voice, I think that Ashlee scores high on "plays well with others," or more accurately, "gets others to play well with her." Does that make her a good singer? I don't know if she could be viable without the modern recording studio (which doesn't mean some of her live clips on YouTube aren't a blast), but then I don't know how Sinatra or Jagger would have done without a microphone. (And I'm not saying she has either of those singers' originality.)

“Outta My Head (Ay Ya Ya)”

Single by Ashlee Simpson
from the album Bittersweet World
Released February 11, 2008
April 20, 2008 (iTunes)
May 19, 2008 (CD)
Format Digital Download, cd single
Recorded 2007
Genre Pop rock, electropop
Length 3:38
Label Geffen Records
Writer(s) Ashlee Simpson, King Logan, Jerome Harmon, Santi White, Kenna
Producer Timbaland, King Logan, Jerome Harmon

that explains a lot

lol Kenna AND Santogold! I need to hear this (again; I think I heard it once but wasn't paying attention).

wtf at ilx: gershy gone, blount and lex back?

the parallels with the tory resurgence are to obvious to point out.

big gap in the I fucking rock bit where the swear is

When did they start doing this, having NO available version where you can actually hear someone say "fuck"? Ruins one of the best lines on the Britney album, too ("just save your foolishness and fuckery I'm handlin' my bidness"). In the liner notes, they don't even print the swear words, or acknowledge there's an edit -- it just says "we got a lot in common and he thinks I rock."

Fuck this bulshit from a hater.

resembles the sound of an abattoir for Tamagotchis

brilliant.

That's a good piece of writing, whether I agree with it or not.

I mean it makes me want to listen to it.

Then it went off the rails drastically. We started becoming obsessed with meta.

backsliding!

I really don't like this, there's a half decent pop record lurking in there somewhere but the whole stiffness of the sound really bugs me. There's a decent pop record lurking in there somewhere but it's like all personality has been systematically sanded away.

There's a richness in her voice in Boys that's just totally lacking elsewhere. If she sounds this bored how can she expect anyone else to be entertained?

Matt did you ever hear I Am Me? A much better record in my opinion.

I don't think I've gone back to Bittersweet World since I last posted to this thread.

this is easily the ashlee simpson album i've returned to least but "boys" is such a fantastic summer jame

*jam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObXc526xPuI

never liked that 1

tracks i come back to on this:

little ms obsessive
bittersweet world
outta my head
nvr dream alone

love this album, albeit less than her previous two

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiW824jkzXk

soooo huge. the verses are so moody and perfect

AM I THE REASON WHY YOU TOSSED
AND TURNED
LAST NIGHT

& she never fails with the closing ballad. "never dream alone" is jaw-dropping.

the backgrounded vocals <3

nights will come and go...
you'll never dream alone...

"murder" is a riot

would argue there's not an actively poor song on any of her albums

"little miss obsessive" is def the standout, it's just less summery and so less...today

autobiography / love makes the world go round / better off / LOVE ME FOR ME / boyfriend / coming back for more / dancing alone / catch me when i fall / i am me / eyes wide open / outta my head / boys / little miss obsessive

those are the 10/10 all-timers imo

shadow + la la is the best 1-2 punch in history

http://www.ashleesimpsonmusic.com/

am i really the first person to post about this? what has happened to our borad

(i like this btw)

omg this sounds amazing

is it already gone or? i dont see anything there

is back, im down

omgomg

this is very promising

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T386nMfal0

i quite like this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2f/Clandestinein689.gif

I think this song is abjectly horrible

I enjoyed it for about 40 seconds.

BUT IT'S A WENTZ SUBTWEET

man how could you not dig this song

lmao @ wentz subtweet