Joy Division vs New Order

The 'what if' question is a good one. If there'd been a power struggle over 'musical direction' and IC had left to 'go solo' as a 'genuine artist' and the others had 'gone pop' with their dance direction, and the result was that IC died years later after a slow decline and NO had a string of hits, would we now feel quite different about both of them?

Or would IC have embraced the NY dance scene too and conquered his demons with E?

As for the rest, here's my two pennorth, for what it's worth: I think it's a non-question, partly because the two are so different and so great (though being at the end of the day more Mahler than Schubert I'll go for JD myself) - what's remarkable is that the two bands are formed from the same musicians, and that NO got something quite new and quite different together after having their lead vocalist commit suicide. I can't get over the respect and awe I feel for that as a creative/emotional achievemtn.

But I can't understand those who hold up Movement - it's not a bad album, and the session/live versions are indeed even better, but it's plainly neither JD nor NO, a band still finding their way between the two. The best of NO is what happened when they surrendered to the black/funk thing.

I think Movement is a masterpiece with some superb production ideas which neither Hannett nor anyone else has ever followed up.

"I.C.B.", "The Him", "Senses", and "Doubts Even Here" are genius on that album. The cathedral synths of "Doubts Even Here" offset by the jangly guitar is especially amazing. Damn, now I have to find my copy of that album...

Yes, the Doubts Even Here bit you mention is the album's highlight, and partly presages NOs ability to simply create an extraordinary NOISE. ICB though is amazing on the Peel session and just a bit dead on the album. Likewise Dreams Never End - a lovely song.

As I said, it's a good album - extraordinary under the circumstances - but a little airless/dead in the stuio and also, to me, let down by some attempts at profundity that are a little hamfisted without IC's input (The Him, anyone?).

Dr C, that's an interesting suggestion. What do you mean?

I used to hate the production, Jon - I suppose I was looking for a 'Closer' part 2 or whatever.. But I was wrong - lots of this is amazing - brittle drums on Truth (I think), fizzing electronics and wierd phasing which really works. I'll have a listen tonight if I have time and try and describe it better. I think the Peel sessions are good, but more conventional and flat.

New Order's period of finding their way, from the "Ceremony" single through Power, Corruption and Lies was an absolute thrill to follow. I still get that feeling of new possibilities listening to Movement, although I can see how it could sound callow to someone more attached to what New Order arrived at.

I think when New Order albums "hold together", they can be kind of boring. I like the way Power, Corruption and Lies doesn't hold together. I'm also put off by the vocal on "Your Silent Face", but its instrumental parts are utter genius. Also, I thought Brotherhood was generally agreed to be crap, so I wouldn't call it overrated.

This thread has become "TS: New Order vs New Order".

i am with dan and dr.c on this one. movement is my favourite no album though it isn't really a no album. i find it is one of the most touching albums ever made. sumner tries to sing like curtis and writes lyrics which could have been curtis's to commemorate curtis's death. and no are sad in all their shallowness. and get ready was a return to form. and technique was great as well. and low-life is rubbish. the songs are crap and the production is even crappier. and no are a singles band except for movement.