Slut-shaming in Popular Music & Song

Sorry, I certainly wasn't calling Beyonce a bully. But I was trying to say that the slut-shaming was being used as a weapon within the context of power games which had little to do with sex.

kinda want to start a band now called "Slut Shaman"

haha i would totally call beyoncé a bully on that album - in fact, it was the extremity of her self-righteous, moralistic cruelty that actually made it perversely enjoyable, kind of like how the most fun characters to watch in mean girls aren't the normal, nice ones, but the plastics.

xxpost - okay yeah I get that and pretty much agree (though tbh hadn't really thought it through), I just wasn't quite sure what you were referring to as I missed whatever lex said previously. Having said that, I think it's fair to call Beyonce a bully!

OMG x-post!

using the most effective weapons that come to hand

this is an important point i think! 'slut-shaming' (and 'prude-shaming') seem to me to be weapons in an arsenal almost more than things-in-themselves. Or, rather, I think there's an asymmetry between the use of slut-shaming techniques and their effect?

slut-shaming techniques! i don't even know what that means

The slut-shaming within the Taylor Swift song we were discussing yesterday (Better Than Revenge) is much more about the sexual aspect of slut-shaming. Swift is denigrating her romantic rival by slut-shaming her.

But I'm not sure there is a difference.

I was thinking "bullying" because it's used so often within teen girl relational violence - and also thinking of the whole controversy over Jade in Sleb Big Brother, and just remember this curious defense of her mother (I think? am not up on this world) claiming "OMG, Jade is not a racist! She's a bully, but she's NOT a racist!" and that stuck in my mind because it seemed such an odd way of defending her. Because 1) the -ism (racism, the sexism inherent in slut shaming, etc) is seldom about the person, but about the *action* - a person who doesn't think of themselves as sexist, or thinks of themselves has holding "feminist beliefs" can still engage in behaviour that is sexist and 2) in actual bullying (and the power games involved in bullying) the bully doesn't always reach for the epithet that reflects their personal philosophy or opinion of the bully-ee so much as they reach for the thing that they *think* is going to hurt worst.

Sure, that often is a reflection of what the bully thinks is "the worst thing" (i.e. homophobic bullying rampant within young men because of fear over their own masculinity). So the slut-shaming by one woman of another can be a power tactic by resorting to that "worst thing".

my favourite tlc song is pretty slut-shamey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xR4Jan8duO4

my favorite latrelle (prod: neptunes) song is VERY slut-shamey but god i love it so:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCabxwata50

(Also why prude-shaming gets used as weapon in communities - libertarians, raunch culture, certain strains of lipstick feminism - where the sexual power of women is viewed as a given. "OMG, what are you, a prude?!?!?" is a denigration of a woman who rejects a stereotyped view of women as automatically sexual or sexualised.)

btw i keep typing things out and deleting them, i do want to discuss this but need to tread carefully is making me tie myself in knots

I already posted that one tracer!

A lot of my girlfriends who consider themselves actively feminist (though certainly not all of them) were really excited by this (I think) local book a few years back called "female chauvinist pigs", which was all about the brazen-sexuality-as-power thing wheal was talking about in the Taylor thread (pussycat dolls et. al.), and its ultimate (or purported) anti-women-ness. I think the writer and (almost certainly) the readers would disapprove of slut-shaming too, but it's an interesting fine line I think - between a disapproval of a culture which perhaps wrongly endorses "slut" behaviour as feminist and the point where that disapproval becomes "slut-shaming".

I don't really trust myself to form a reasoned stance politically. Like, I want to defend Lil' Kim, Foxy Brown etc. but probably mostly just because I like their music.

Whoops sorry Tim. I'm at work now so no watchie no vids

btw i keep typing things out and deleting them, i do want to discuss this but need to tread carefully is making me tie myself in knots

I certainly know that feeling. But if you're worried about "offending" *me* specifically then please don't worry. I'd rather hear what you have to say because I recognise that you have given this a lot of thought and are coming at it from an angle of genuinely being interested in it. (i.e. not just trying to get a rise out of someone)

i don't even know that being a slut or thought of as a slut is the 'worst thing'? i think it's just... the thing that is provisionally most useful. when you're attacking a woman you have a whole repertoire of common insults and associations to choose from-- and that choice is affected not just by which you think are the worst disses to receive, but also by which you think are most appropriate to the situation.

you don't get a lot of 'she stole my boyfriend, she's probably frigid anyway', you know?

For a woman, engaging in sexual behaviour outside the societal norm (whether that norm is purity ring policing or the kind of "girls gone wild" libertarianism) is still, *totally* one of "the worst thing" in terms of denigrating women. The method of what the prescribed behaviour actually is changes, but the idea of female sexuality as something to be policed and monitored and controlled within a narrow range - I don't think that's changed.

What other "worst thing" is there for a girl? You're not ATTRACTIVE is a big one, but that kind of reflects right back onto sexuality and the control of it, again.

A lot of my girlfriends who consider themselves actively feminist (though certainly not all of them) were really excited by this (I think) local book a few years back called "female chauvinist pigs", which was all about the brazen-sexuality-as-power thing wheal was talking about in the Taylor thread (pussycat dolls et. al.), and its ultimate (or purported) anti-women-ness. I think the writer and (almost certainly) the readers would disapprove of slut-shaming too, but it's an interesting fine line I think - between a disapproval of a culture which perhaps wrongly endorses "slut" behaviour as feminist and the point where that disapproval becomes "slut-shaming".

this was the ariel levy book i referenced upthread - levy is american i believe, that book was pretty popular. i wouldn't say it got unanimous support from my female friends who consider themselves feminist - some of whom were pretty irritated by it iirc - but mostly, yes.

i don't recall the phrase "slut-shaming" being in common parlance back then, but if it had been, i would 100% have used it to describe that book. iirc one of the things that pissed me off most about it was how levy didn't bother speaking to any of the strippers or models that she condemned for pushing raunch culture.

this was around the time that the pussycat dolls were said to have "set feminism back by 100 years", and i thought there was a LOT of slut-shaming in that stance.

which isn't to say i can't see the harm that raunch culture does - and of course i don't know what levy and people like her think about "slut-shaming" now.

weapon in communities

YES. i think this is really fucking important, this idea of communities! prude-shaming might be the norm in certain communities, slut-shaming in another, and the trouble with most of the analyses i've read is that in attempting to talk about this policing of women's sexuality from a general, society-wide standpoint, these varying cultural norms tend to be erased.

but i think we're in multiple communities at once all the time!

Going back to the music, I dunno, though - when I hear something like that skit between Missy E and Lil Kim about using the word "bitch" - that, to me, is reclaimation on the same level as riot grrrls writing "slut" on their bodies, so that doesn't bother me.

But it goes back to the deep level split within feminism itself - is Feminism wanting to grab as much as the boys have (and so incorporating all that sexuality as a power dynamic/control thing) or is it about wanting to rewrite gender roles entirely to promote equality? That is the eternal question.

In a different slant:

That Eliza Dolittle song, she sings "I don't care what the people may say.. about me"

Which leads me to think she's not really up on what the people 'could' say, rightly or wrongly.

but i think we're in multiple communities at once all the time!

which is where the conflict comes in - i guess to clarify, how you express your sexuality has as much to do w/where you come from as who you are

aha! found an excellent thing that erika villani (natch) wrote at the time of the "pussycat dolls are killing feminism forever" arguments - http://girlboymusic.livejournal.com/194503.html - her point that the PCDs are visually problematic but lyrically empowering (and nicole scherzinger solo was the opposite)

but i think we're in multiple communities at once all the time!

Well, this is also about the conflicting demands placed on young women - like, there is this one culture which says "PRETTY is a rent you pay for occupying a space called female, you must look - and BE - sexually available to men at all times" and at the same time, this conflicting culture which says "expressing your actual sexuality or desire in any way that is slightly outside the norm makes you a BAD WOMAN and a NASTY HO so don't you dare" and the cognitive dissonance between those two strands of the same culture is what makes girls' heads explode. But it also makes for the kind of tension that makes really interesting art, so maybe watching women negotiate that path can make for some really good music?

I mean, that line from Electrik Red - forget the exact words but the whole "I'm not a nasty ho - well, I am, but I'm classy, though" is about negotiating that cognitive dissonance, and that makes for some damn fine art on that particular song.

I don't think I've used that retort since the second grade. I will call out most female pop stars when they're entirely uncreative or biting other artists' styles and every one of the new "it girls" is guilty of doing that. Nobody has their own style and frankly, I think it sucks and it makes me want to not listen to pop music for another 5 years.

I think this is the same baton that a lot of the white middle class indie brigade used to beat on nu-metal during the turn of the century was as well? Insofar as slut-shaming isn't just aimed at women, but was also an attack weapon against the likes of Limp Bizkit and similar who refused to kowtow to a moralistic view of what's "acceptable" sexual behavior.

??? I don't know anyone who hated on Limp Bizkit for their 'sexual behavior'. unless the hat was some kind of kink thing I just didn't know about.

^^and often considering the discographical context of songs that appear slut-shaming can be illuminating - eg, is tlc's "silly ho" evidence that they changed their position since they released "ain't 2 proud 2 beg" as their debut? or is it worth focusing on the distinction between the focus on sexual freedom as a means of feeling good about yourself of the latter, and sleeping around solely because you think it'll make men like you of the former.

xps

I mean, that line from Electrik Red - forget the exact words but the whole "I'm not a nasty ho - well, I am, but I'm classy, though" is about negotiating that cognitive dissonance, and that makes for some damn fine art on that particular song.

yes, that was the beauty of the electrik red album for me, how it seemed to be a conscious attempt to negotiate this territory. that didn't stop certain people from calling them unfeminist though.

I haven't read the "Female Chauvinist Pigs" bookl, but my thoughts are basically that if a woman is empowered by her open attitude towards sexuality, then 'slut-shaming' becomes less effective. It's only when it comes from a more vulnerable place, ie when the woman sleeps with guys to compensate for low self esteem, that I feel that the whole slut-shaming thing gets a really nasty edge...

but I'd bet it's not all zeros and ones here, and I really wouldn't know where the line is...

(I mean, I kind of feel the whole thing is despicable across the board anyways)

"PRETTY is a rent you pay for occupying a space called female"

i love this!

(though i think that is actually a different strand from the stuff abt sexual availability to men! to me there is - perhaps it's part of the cog-diss tension you talk about - a distinction between the kind of socially enforced 'attractive-enough' that women have to conform to, and being specifically sexually attractive. a lot of which is abt being classy!)

I thought a lot of times this was used more in a context of a woman who cheats on her boyfriend and/or tries to steal other women's boyfriends. Which is transgressive but also just shitty.

if a woman is empowered by her open attitude towards sexuality, then 'slut-shaming' becomes less effective. It's only when it comes from a more vulnerable place, ie when the woman sleeps with guys to compensate for low self esteem, that I feel that the whole slut-shaming thing gets a really nasty edge

surely shaming someone for their behaviour is shaming them for their behaviour, no matter what their personal and unknown-to-you reasons are?

i mean, if you slept around and ppl were like 'it is to compensate for the low self-esteem, so sad' all the time, it wouldn't matter if you actually felt empowered by yr sexuality, there's still a bunch of people shaming you about your behaviour.

Yeah, Cis OTM. The thing about slut-shaming is that it's aimed at others. "This is my sexuality, good or bad, it's mine and I own it" is Empowerment; "Ew, you nasty ho, you dirty slut, but it's clearly to compensate for the poor self esteem" is slut-shaming.

(Sub question, can you slut shame yourself? Are there lyrical examples of this? early Hole probably has some. It would obviously be problematic for the same reason, but I don't know that anyone would get called on it.)

I guess I just figured a necessary pit stop on the road to empowerment was reealizing that other people were going to make unfounded assumptions about you, and there was no good reason to let the approval of people you don't know dictate how you live your life...?

This is an interesting case...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mvAMEaWgTQ

It's very obviously giving both barrels to the cheating man, and one of the absolute canonical archetypes of blaming the man rather than the woman, and I think it manages to express the anger and the betrayal that indicts both halves of the cheating couple, and yet still, there are lines that make me uncomfortable. (Though I think the whole *point* of the song is to make the hearer uncomfortable, so there's that.)

I think this is the same baton that a lot of the white middle class indie brigade used to beat on nu-metal during the turn of the century was as well? Insofar as slut-shaming isn't just aimed at women, but was also an attack weapon against the likes of Limp Bizkit and similar who refused to kowtow to a moralistic view of what's "acceptable" sexual behavior.

― Inspector Anthony Slade, Friday, October 29, 2010 7:43 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

eh i dunno. i'm sure the young men of limp bizkit ran through a bunch of groupies, but who cares, their "unacceptable sexual behavior" in my understanding was cheering on a bunch of sexual assault at woodstock

p.s. the "pretty is not a rent" thing is brilliant, but I can't claim credit for it...

http://www.dressaday.com/2006/10/you-dont-have-to-be-pretty.html

i can't really take any of the lyrics of electrik red seriously, they all read to me as what t. nash would like a hot girl to tell him

Sub question, can you slut shame yourself? Are there lyrical examples of this?

i was gonna mention a lot of madonna's erotica - which "thief of hearts" is taken from - certainly "bad girl" would count (although that song is complex and psychologically true enough that just calling in slut-shaming wouldn't be enough)

I think Erotica is a good example of a singer taking pretty much every possible stance on this issue.

i can't really take any of the lyrics of electrik red seriously, they all read to me as what t. nash would like a hot girl to tell him

Yeah this was my problem. I don't really buy the "they bullied me into taking their approach" party line. He would say that.

Sub question, can you slut shame yourself? Are there lyrical examples of this?

OP cites 'Fuck And Run' up there which seems pretty textbook if I understand this whole thing correctly

Also re: the Pussycat Dolls there's a world of difference between "this is my sexuality, good or bad, it's mine and I own it" (Lil Kim, Madonna, Trina) and being packaged as male wank fantasy. They overlap as well but it's not one and the same thing.

Re self-shaming, Ani DiFranco's "Light of Some Kind" has some of my favourite lyrics on this kind of thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-s-qiCrk-M

Also re: the Pussycat Dolls there's a world of difference between "this is my sexuality, good or bad, it's mine and I own it" (Lil Kim, Madonna, Trina) and being packaged as male wank fantasy. They overlap as well but it's not one and the same thing.

and how exactly do you judge who is on which side of the boundary? as erika's post said, the pussycat dolls' lyrics were mostly quasi-feminist in their female solidarity/male gaze/non-submissive stance - certainly a lot more so than destiny's child or, for that matter, lil kim or trina, who explicitly sell themselves as male wank fantasies.

Also re: the Pussycat Dolls there's a world of difference between "this is my sexuality, good or bad, it's mine and I own it" (Lil Kim, Madonna, Trina) and being packaged as male wank fantasy. They overlap as well but it's not one and the same thing.

That also kind of fits into what Ariel Levy's book was actually about (and yeah, I can understand how a poor understanding or a skimmed reading of her arguments could make it seem like she was slut-shaming) - the difference between the two.

And I have read and acknowledge a lot of the criticism of Ariel Levy which was saying "but what about the women, where is *their* Agency in all this?" But that was kind of Levy's point, that this stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum, and even though it might be an individual's choice, that choice is shaped by the options that *are* available.

Levy was certainly NOT saying "women who choose to pole dance are sluts" - what she was saying was actually "A culture in which women are paid/valued more for dancing topless on a bar than for being called to The Bar has really fucked up priorities and we need to change those priorities, not shame women for their choices." Like, if your choice is make ££££££ for dancing on tables vs £ for waiting on tables, how much of a choice is that? And how it's really hard to even have a conversation about Agency when you are dealing with a moneymaking organisation (like Girls Gone Wild - given their recent lawsuits) that doesn't even bother with *consent* let alone Agency. But the commodification of sexuality is a much bigger and thornier issue than slut shaming and probably not within the remit of this thread.

I think Erotica is a good example of a singer taking pretty much every possible stance on this issue.
― Tim F, Friday, 29 October 2010 14:22 (43 minutes ago)

yeah, & "thief of hearts" is a great take on the slut-shaming, because she's so knowingly dressing up and playing such an extreme role, it's almost a parody. she doesn't care that's she's lost her man at all really (if there ever was one even), she just wants to role play, act ridiculously camp & dramatic (like "bye bye baby" she's almost morphed into some draq queen-esque figure), and set up some completely depersonalised figured just so she can say "bitch", break some glass a few times, and exercise some bravado. it's more like she's throwing yet another persona out there to hide behind, to disguise how much of a wreck she actually is, and it's "bad girl" that shows this reality - she's the thief of hearts (or at least similar to her), and it's not just the lifestyle but the weight of the personas she's been creating that is crippling her.

Dion - Runaround Sue

When he messes around, it's OK because he's The Wanderer, but the same doesn't go for Runaround Sue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFyRhgCvqaU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEWiHZBBd00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WNLrqLoPSM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bRA0kMl5vE

opening gambits of this thread are fucking awful, wow. kinda feel like it would be better to have another, untainted one for collecting songs or reviews for the rolling evidence drawer. who was kkvgz, and what became of, I assume, him?

now creating problems as the useless mod how's life

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuwPtiTxT8A

'run for your life' - beatles

an "overripe tomato" - ha.

Devil In Disguise - Elvis Presley
Christine's Tune (Devil In Disguise) - Flying Burrito Brothers
Maybelline - Chuck Berry