Slut-shaming in Popular Music & Song

I don't much care for getting called out by someone with a less than 10 day posting history though, so perhaps you should settle down and read some threads before jumping up in someone's grill here.

― kkvgz, Friday, 29 October 2010 12:35 (1 minute ago)

this is going to end really badly, in 680 posts' time

There's something happening here, but I don't know what it is, do I, Mr. Jagger?

I think part of what gives me a sense of humor about it is that "slut-shaming" is obviously a stupid term invented by someone who probably likes to say "slut" over and over again - a la Beavis and Butthead - although probably attempting to couch it in an "ironic" academic context.

Maybe you should actually read up on the history and context of the term and its origin within feminist theory before leaping to conclusions and throwing around half baked opinions about its usage, which actually reveal way more about *your* internal assumptions and biases than they do about the term and the theory behind it.

idk, he is not wrong that 'slut-shaming' is a hideous term.

I honestly don't know what "slut" means anymore. I thought feminists took that word back to mean something like empowered player?

xxp: Dude, if you don't like my thread - start your own thread. Don't troll my thead.

(wheel dream is a long term poster under a new moniker btw)

xposts, it is a useful concept and all! but there is something revolting about it, up to and including the fact that it is used because it is revolting and that has power.

someone put some "slut-shaming" lyrics up, please.

xxp: Then they should know better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMUUysmfYUw

nb 1970s-feminists of my acquaintance still use 'slut' to mean 'slovenly woman', let's not assume consensus about meaning here.

idk, he is not wrong that 'slut-shaming' is a hideous term.

it's a useful term, at any rate. was it in common feminist parlance around the time that ariel levy's raunch culture book was published?

this could be a really interesting thread but i get the distinct impression kkvgz did not start it with those intentions, so, whatevz.

madonna and lil kim would be crucial figures to discuss but the pussycat dolls would be the most interesting i think - remember how, almost unanimously, they were seen to be the "death of feminism" a few years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQyr6_o5aeQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGDanXRQR-4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OGN8OsZzkw

this could be a really interesting thread but i get the distinct impression kkvgz did not start it with those intentions, so, whatevz.

Dude, fuck you. I just said that I started it with the best intentions and a little bit of a sense of humor.

x-posts obviously

I think it's one of those ugly terms which is deliberately ugly or provocative in order to highlight the ugliness of the actual behaviour. I'm not sure how well that works (or indeed, if it might actually be counterproductive, in that it accidentally causes people like the OP to draw conclusions) - obviously I have mixed feelings about the "reclaimation" of language in that way.

How do you feel about the converse term (or even phenomenon) of "prude shaming"? These things seems to be linked in a common way - i.e. that they are all done with the aim of controlling the behaviour of women.

I think it's interesting the way that slut-shaming often gets used within an arsenal within the context of other bullying or power games (as Lex pointed out yesterday, about Beyonce and the whole drama of Survivor, that slut-shaming is invoked as a way of dismissing another woman, even though the sexual aspect is subsumed within other general power games.) But this is often a phenomenon within other kinds of -isms, that it's often about one person asserting superiority over another, and the cheap shots are deployed within that game, *knowing* that they have a power greater than non-loaded insults.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCabxwata50

Wait Wheal, what's your point about Beyonce there?

My point was that the whole thing of the Survivor album was Beyonce asserting her dominance over (I'm assuming the departed members of DC, but also haters in general) and that much of the slut-shaming on that album was as much about "I am angry at these people, and venting my anger and asserting my superiority over them using the most effective weapons that come to hand" as it was about "I am denigrating your sexuality."

Sorry, I certainly wasn't calling Beyonce a bully. But I was trying to say that the slut-shaming was being used as a weapon within the context of power games which had little to do with sex.

kinda want to start a band now called "Slut Shaman"

haha i would totally call beyoncé a bully on that album - in fact, it was the extremity of her self-righteous, moralistic cruelty that actually made it perversely enjoyable, kind of like how the most fun characters to watch in mean girls aren't the normal, nice ones, but the plastics.

xxpost - okay yeah I get that and pretty much agree (though tbh hadn't really thought it through), I just wasn't quite sure what you were referring to as I missed whatever lex said previously. Having said that, I think it's fair to call Beyonce a bully!

OMG x-post!

using the most effective weapons that come to hand

this is an important point i think! 'slut-shaming' (and 'prude-shaming') seem to me to be weapons in an arsenal almost more than things-in-themselves. Or, rather, I think there's an asymmetry between the use of slut-shaming techniques and their effect?

slut-shaming techniques! i don't even know what that means

The slut-shaming within the Taylor Swift song we were discussing yesterday (Better Than Revenge) is much more about the sexual aspect of slut-shaming. Swift is denigrating her romantic rival by slut-shaming her.

But I'm not sure there is a difference.

I was thinking "bullying" because it's used so often within teen girl relational violence - and also thinking of the whole controversy over Jade in Sleb Big Brother, and just remember this curious defense of her mother (I think? am not up on this world) claiming "OMG, Jade is not a racist! She's a bully, but she's NOT a racist!" and that stuck in my mind because it seemed such an odd way of defending her. Because 1) the -ism (racism, the sexism inherent in slut shaming, etc) is seldom about the person, but about the *action* - a person who doesn't think of themselves as sexist, or thinks of themselves has holding "feminist beliefs" can still engage in behaviour that is sexist and 2) in actual bullying (and the power games involved in bullying) the bully doesn't always reach for the epithet that reflects their personal philosophy or opinion of the bully-ee so much as they reach for the thing that they *think* is going to hurt worst.

Sure, that often is a reflection of what the bully thinks is "the worst thing" (i.e. homophobic bullying rampant within young men because of fear over their own masculinity). So the slut-shaming by one woman of another can be a power tactic by resorting to that "worst thing".

my favourite tlc song is pretty slut-shamey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xR4Jan8duO4

my favorite latrelle (prod: neptunes) song is VERY slut-shamey but god i love it so:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCabxwata50

(Also why prude-shaming gets used as weapon in communities - libertarians, raunch culture, certain strains of lipstick feminism - where the sexual power of women is viewed as a given. "OMG, what are you, a prude?!?!?" is a denigration of a woman who rejects a stereotyped view of women as automatically sexual or sexualised.)

btw i keep typing things out and deleting them, i do want to discuss this but need to tread carefully is making me tie myself in knots

I already posted that one tracer!

A lot of my girlfriends who consider themselves actively feminist (though certainly not all of them) were really excited by this (I think) local book a few years back called "female chauvinist pigs", which was all about the brazen-sexuality-as-power thing wheal was talking about in the Taylor thread (pussycat dolls et. al.), and its ultimate (or purported) anti-women-ness. I think the writer and (almost certainly) the readers would disapprove of slut-shaming too, but it's an interesting fine line I think - between a disapproval of a culture which perhaps wrongly endorses "slut" behaviour as feminist and the point where that disapproval becomes "slut-shaming".

I don't really trust myself to form a reasoned stance politically. Like, I want to defend Lil' Kim, Foxy Brown etc. but probably mostly just because I like their music.

Whoops sorry Tim. I'm at work now so no watchie no vids

btw i keep typing things out and deleting them, i do want to discuss this but need to tread carefully is making me tie myself in knots

I certainly know that feeling. But if you're worried about "offending" *me* specifically then please don't worry. I'd rather hear what you have to say because I recognise that you have given this a lot of thought and are coming at it from an angle of genuinely being interested in it. (i.e. not just trying to get a rise out of someone)

i don't even know that being a slut or thought of as a slut is the 'worst thing'? i think it's just... the thing that is provisionally most useful. when you're attacking a woman you have a whole repertoire of common insults and associations to choose from-- and that choice is affected not just by which you think are the worst disses to receive, but also by which you think are most appropriate to the situation.

you don't get a lot of 'she stole my boyfriend, she's probably frigid anyway', you know?

For a woman, engaging in sexual behaviour outside the societal norm (whether that norm is purity ring policing or the kind of "girls gone wild" libertarianism) is still, *totally* one of "the worst thing" in terms of denigrating women. The method of what the prescribed behaviour actually is changes, but the idea of female sexuality as something to be policed and monitored and controlled within a narrow range - I don't think that's changed.

What other "worst thing" is there for a girl? You're not ATTRACTIVE is a big one, but that kind of reflects right back onto sexuality and the control of it, again.

A lot of my girlfriends who consider themselves actively feminist (though certainly not all of them) were really excited by this (I think) local book a few years back called "female chauvinist pigs", which was all about the brazen-sexuality-as-power thing wheal was talking about in the Taylor thread (pussycat dolls et. al.), and its ultimate (or purported) anti-women-ness. I think the writer and (almost certainly) the readers would disapprove of slut-shaming too, but it's an interesting fine line I think - between a disapproval of a culture which perhaps wrongly endorses "slut" behaviour as feminist and the point where that disapproval becomes "slut-shaming".

this was the ariel levy book i referenced upthread - levy is american i believe, that book was pretty popular. i wouldn't say it got unanimous support from my female friends who consider themselves feminist - some of whom were pretty irritated by it iirc - but mostly, yes.

i don't recall the phrase "slut-shaming" being in common parlance back then, but if it had been, i would 100% have used it to describe that book. iirc one of the things that pissed me off most about it was how levy didn't bother speaking to any of the strippers or models that she condemned for pushing raunch culture.

this was around the time that the pussycat dolls were said to have "set feminism back by 100 years", and i thought there was a LOT of slut-shaming in that stance.

which isn't to say i can't see the harm that raunch culture does - and of course i don't know what levy and people like her think about "slut-shaming" now.

weapon in communities

YES. i think this is really fucking important, this idea of communities! prude-shaming might be the norm in certain communities, slut-shaming in another, and the trouble with most of the analyses i've read is that in attempting to talk about this policing of women's sexuality from a general, society-wide standpoint, these varying cultural norms tend to be erased.

but i think we're in multiple communities at once all the time!

Going back to the music, I dunno, though - when I hear something like that skit between Missy E and Lil Kim about using the word "bitch" - that, to me, is reclaimation on the same level as riot grrrls writing "slut" on their bodies, so that doesn't bother me.

But it goes back to the deep level split within feminism itself - is Feminism wanting to grab as much as the boys have (and so incorporating all that sexuality as a power dynamic/control thing) or is it about wanting to rewrite gender roles entirely to promote equality? That is the eternal question.

In a different slant:

That Eliza Dolittle song, she sings "I don't care what the people may say.. about me"

Which leads me to think she's not really up on what the people 'could' say, rightly or wrongly.

but i think we're in multiple communities at once all the time!

which is where the conflict comes in - i guess to clarify, how you express your sexuality has as much to do w/where you come from as who you are

aha! found an excellent thing that erika villani (natch) wrote at the time of the "pussycat dolls are killing feminism forever" arguments - http://girlboymusic.livejournal.com/194503.html - her point that the PCDs are visually problematic but lyrically empowering (and nicole scherzinger solo was the opposite)

but i think we're in multiple communities at once all the time!

Well, this is also about the conflicting demands placed on young women - like, there is this one culture which says "PRETTY is a rent you pay for occupying a space called female, you must look - and BE - sexually available to men at all times" and at the same time, this conflicting culture which says "expressing your actual sexuality or desire in any way that is slightly outside the norm makes you a BAD WOMAN and a NASTY HO so don't you dare" and the cognitive dissonance between those two strands of the same culture is what makes girls' heads explode. But it also makes for the kind of tension that makes really interesting art, so maybe watching women negotiate that path can make for some really good music?

I mean, that line from Electrik Red - forget the exact words but the whole "I'm not a nasty ho - well, I am, but I'm classy, though" is about negotiating that cognitive dissonance, and that makes for some damn fine art on that particular song.

I don't think I've used that retort since the second grade. I will call out most female pop stars when they're entirely uncreative or biting other artists' styles and every one of the new "it girls" is guilty of doing that. Nobody has their own style and frankly, I think it sucks and it makes me want to not listen to pop music for another 5 years.

I think this is the same baton that a lot of the white middle class indie brigade used to beat on nu-metal during the turn of the century was as well? Insofar as slut-shaming isn't just aimed at women, but was also an attack weapon against the likes of Limp Bizkit and similar who refused to kowtow to a moralistic view of what's "acceptable" sexual behavior.

??? I don't know anyone who hated on Limp Bizkit for their 'sexual behavior'. unless the hat was some kind of kink thing I just didn't know about.

^^and often considering the discographical context of songs that appear slut-shaming can be illuminating - eg, is tlc's "silly ho" evidence that they changed their position since they released "ain't 2 proud 2 beg" as their debut? or is it worth focusing on the distinction between the focus on sexual freedom as a means of feeling good about yourself of the latter, and sleeping around solely because you think it'll make men like you of the former.

xps

nope

What is this the nineteenth century?

i'd agree, NV, given the inclusion of the word "clearly" in my question. take it out, though, and there's a lot of room for equivocation - room enough to recognize that some instances of what might look like slut shaming might be better attributed to other impulses.

and yeah, it is the nineteenth century. and the eighteenth and the 12th and the 22nd. at least some of the time, somewhere, in this or that mind or culture. standards & values are hardly lockstep universal.

hey, I was v. ambiguous at my daughter singing along to "If You Seek Amy" but I guess my response to that wasn't exactly "OMG that Britney's shameless".

the keri hilson video in question:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xES7NPeZS2k

idk, i don't get any particularly desperate vibes from it - but maybe that's cuz i'm familiar with keri hilson, her boss-bitch persona and the amount of control she probably has over these things. it's in keeping with the song, too.

the only issue for me is that control - whether "alutty" videos (and photoshoots &c) are a genuine expression of what the artist wants to convey, or whether it's something they have to resort to when they don't want to do it, or whether they're just being wheeled out by record label bosses and told to take their clothes off. or a mix of all three! it's kinda impossible to actually judge this, and in many cases it's more insulting to assume that the female artist doesn't have agency. obviously there are times when it rings more true than others but that's pretty subjective.

as for sexual explicitness and inappropriateness - they're not bad things per se and i totally welcome them. it's up to parents to parent.

i thought it was amusing earlier this year when (dancehall mc) lady chann tweeted about how much she loved rihanna's "rude boy" and doing a guest verse on a remix of it. and then the following week tweeted something like "HOLD UP my 8-yr-old daughter is singing "come here rude boy can you get it up" around the house :/ "

i mean that video is certainly O_O but it's also about the best visual representation of a song that goes FUCK ME FUCK ME IT'S THE WAY YOU FUCK ME in the chorus

the shaming probably has something to do with the fact that the singles off this album so far have been non-starters -- i haven't read any criticisms of it myself, but i imagine that if this was the first single it would've been seen just as a new direction for her, as opposed to "desperation slutiness!!" (which is how i took it at first too)

she has previous for explicit songs, though - it's never been an integral part of her persona (and i'm guessing won't be after this) but it's enough to make me think she's comfortable with songs like this, rather than resorting to them out of nowhere. and she just seems too smart and level-headed and versed in the ways of the industry to be anyone's puppet here.

did "pretty girl rock" tank? i thought that hadn't even been properly released yet. sad if so.

This song isn't even good, please wake me for commentary when the song is worth listening to. I hate reading a lot of p.c. political commentary over a song that isn't that good. It makes it look like critics or academics don't know what good music is.

well i'm pretty sure u don't

hey, I was v. ambiguous at my daughter singing along to "If You Seek Amy" but I guess my response to that wasn't exactly "OMG that Britney's shameless".

― 3:10 to Your Ma (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, December 1, 2010 3:12 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

You shoulda been there when my son started singing along to "3".

the only issue for me is that control - whether "alutty" videos (and photoshoots &c) are a genuine expression of what the artist wants to convey, or whether it's something they have to resort to when they don't want to do it, or whether they're just being wheeled out by record label bosses and told to take their clothes off. or a mix of all three! it's kinda impossible to actually judge this, and in many cases it's more insulting to assume that the female artist doesn't have agency. obviously there are times when it rings more true than others but that's pretty subjective.

Yeah, I know this is opening a whole can of worms, but I do think that there are other options than just those three. That when you are operating in a culture whereby women are rewarded for how well they *perform* sexuality (in a way they are not rewarded or even discussed, for their technical skills such as to production skills, writing music, lyrics, etc.) you create an environment whereby the perhaps excessive display certain aspects of womanhood (looks, sexuality, etc.) are totally normalised in a way that precludes other choices.

So I don't think it's always just a case of "well, this particular woman had agency and made a choice to present herself in this way" so much as "what were the other choices that were available to her within a culture that values women for looks and sexuality above all else?" Agency doesn't happen in a vacuum.

But, you know, I'm just a boring old feminist who's read too much Ariel Levy. And it's really hard to ask these questions without descending into slut shaming, which I don't want to do.

tl;dr: Lex, it's more complicated than that, and you of all people should know it.

Something I guess where the individual could have agency/power over their own choices - and exercise that - but at same time the exercizing of that choice reinforces what choices there actually are.

yeah i get your points karen, but

a) i'm not going to criticise a performer for performing - keri hilson made a deliberate choice to be a performer as well as a songwriter - but on the other hand her songwriting is kinda the hook on which she found that success as a performer, so i'd disagree that that element of her career hasn't been discussed

b) "precludes other choices" - again talking about keri hilson specifically, i don't think this is the case at all. raunchy videos like this get people all aflutter but her biggest hit came with this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_RqWocthcc

in which she basically wears normal, casual clothing throughout and bar a few doe eyes at the camera (in a song about love) doesn't "perform" sexually. just to reiterate, that was her biggest hit. so i wouldn't say that performing non-sexually is an option that's closed to her.

i'm kind of wondering how keri hilson herself would respond, say if an interviewer brought it up, to the theory that her choices in her career are limited - that she doesn't hold that power - given how much of her public image is of a business-minded, in-control woman. i find it hard to believe that someone who's worked behind the scenes in the industry for as long as she has doesn't know exactly how it works - it could come off as slightly patronising to assume otherwise.

don't think that came out 100% well :/

also EVERY career involves biting the bullet at times and doing things you're not 100% into or comfortable with. and that's ok! not that i'm saying that keri's uncomfortable with this - i have no way of knowing.

i think one can express concern about the hypersexualization of female roles in pop media while still granting individual pop artists the right to express and present themselves in any manner they might choose. and sure, as lex says, the dictates of commerce (driven by the dictates and manipulation of desire) push people into all sorts of compromises that they might not independently choose, but it's probably best to refrain from assuming that this or that performer has been so coerced, even subtly, unless we've got good, case-specific reasons to think so.

which is to say that there's nothing wrong with keri's video, nor is there anything wrong with thinking there's something wrong with it.

just wanna

my response to that wasn't exactly "OMG that Britney's shameless"

acknowledge

A more interesting question is why someone would come out with something that isn't the best example of their work.

and here is keri herself to opine on this: http://twitter.com/MissKeriBaby/statuses/10114357736251392

well said that lady.

Dion - Runaround Sue

When he messes around, it's OK because he's The Wanderer, but the same doesn't go for Runaround Sue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFyRhgCvqaU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEWiHZBBd00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WNLrqLoPSM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bRA0kMl5vE

opening gambits of this thread are fucking awful, wow. kinda feel like it would be better to have another, untainted one for collecting songs or reviews for the rolling evidence drawer. who was kkvgz, and what became of, I assume, him?

now creating problems as the useless mod how's life

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuwPtiTxT8A

'run for your life' - beatles

an "overripe tomato" - ha.

Devil In Disguise - Elvis Presley
Christine's Tune (Devil In Disguise) - Flying Burrito Brothers
Maybelline - Chuck Berry