don't get how that could take you out of it though. like, it's an odd lil bit of trivia and all, but like, is mayer-face peering through yr window when 'dear john' is on? wld it be less distracting if these were abt folks you had a higher estimation of?
― bear, bear, bear, Friday, 29 October 2010 01:08 (thirteen years ago) link
I don't have a low opinion of any of them, really -- it's just, for something like "Innocent," the backstory just completely overwhelms everything for me right now. when I usually listen to songs I have no idea about the context in which they were made most of the time, so I don't have that problem. someone else's (the artist's) vision of what their song is about doesn't overwhelm my own
― markers, Friday, 29 October 2010 01:10 (thirteen years ago) link
that wasn't completely coherent but whatever
nah i got u
― bear, bear, bear, Friday, 29 October 2010 01:13 (thirteen years ago) link
I think the key problem with "Innocent" w/r/t backstory (and I assume this was covered in the debates following the live performance) is that she makes Kanye's conduct into some kind of life-altering burden of shame that he's unnecessarily carrying around with him - as if he's an unwed teen mother or a drug addict or a trying-to-reform ex-con or something. Notwithstanding the forgiveness it feels heavy-handed.\
Whereas when I (initially) assumed it actually was about someone along those lines it didn't bother me.
The diff. between "Innocent" and "Dear John" is that the latter is about her feelings, whereas the former is about the other person's feelings. It doesn't occur to me to get too concerned about the backstory of "Dear John" because that would involve me stepping into Taylor's actual (as opposed to performative) shoes. In "Innocent" she's already doing that herself so it invites the critique more readily.
― Tim F, Friday, 29 October 2010 01:18 (thirteen years ago) link
you must train yourself markers
― dayo, Friday, 29 October 2010 01:18 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah but taylors projections just end up revealing more about herself
― dayo, Friday, 29 October 2010 01:20 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah, I agree, and I still like the song, I just mean it's not a song where it's easy to just disregard the backstory once you know what that backstory is.
― Tim F, Friday, 29 October 2010 01:22 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah, "innocent" just seems clumsy all around to me. don't care for it at all
― bear, bear, bear, Friday, 29 October 2010 01:22 (thirteen years ago) link
xpost
exactly
― markers, Friday, 29 October 2010 01:22 (thirteen years ago) link
the only line that really snaps me back out and into the backstory is the 32 y/o one. other than that I think she's expressing a pretty universal sentiment, ie were not the sum of our actions etc
― dayo, Friday, 29 October 2010 01:29 (thirteen years ago) link
best line on "innocent" is the one about how we get to be brand new each day
taken at face value, the lyrics kind of imply that taylor and the object of the song were quite close before? or that he meant something to her? the tone is one of reassurance that she still cares for him (and that she means enough to him that her forgiveness would matter)
― lex lex lex lex lex on the track BOW (lex pretend), Friday, 29 October 2010 02:03 (thirteen years ago) link
Yeah not so much the lyric itself but the vocal and the arrangement at this point are just massive.
― Tim F, Friday, 29 October 2010 02:12 (thirteen years ago) link
with "innocent" i sort of imagine that kanye got all obsessive for a few weeks (because he's like that) and kept calling or writing her ALL-CAPS EMAILS about how bad he felt and how he was lying awake at night wondering WHATS WRONG WITH ME, and the song is her responding to that. that's just a guess, but it would make the song make a little more sense.
― a tenth level which features a single castle (tipsy mothra), Friday, 29 October 2010 02:49 (thirteen years ago) link
good point -- we don't know what went on behind the scenes
― markers, Friday, 29 October 2010 02:57 (thirteen years ago) link
tbh with each leak from the new kanye album I think the caricature on 'innocent' is more and more otm
― dayo, Friday, 29 October 2010 02:59 (thirteen years ago) link
if there's one thing you could say about "innocent" is that it's condescending -- it's CERTAINLY otm tho
― sour posse (J0rdan S.), Friday, 29 October 2010 03:01 (thirteen years ago) link
self-evident, no?
― sandra lee, gimme your alcohol (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 29 October 2010 03:02 (thirteen years ago) link
I wonder if kanye sent taylor a picture of his dick
and then told her to runaway
~hmm~
― dayo, Friday, 29 October 2010 03:02 (thirteen years ago) link
it's self-evident what went on behind the scenes? i don't think so
― markers, Friday, 29 October 2010 03:03 (thirteen years ago) link
no, it's self-evident that we don't want to know
― dayo, Friday, 29 October 2010 03:04 (thirteen years ago) link
"Runaway" sure is an...inelegant variation on "Mean."
― sandra lee, gimme your alcohol (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 29 October 2010 03:04 (thirteen years ago) link
Lost your balance on a tightrope
do u think kanye took taylor to a private circus?
Your string of lights is still bright to me
do u think kanye took taylor christmas tree shopping?
You wouldn't be shattered on the floor now
do u think they listened to natalie imbruglia's 'torn' together??
― dayo, Friday, 29 October 2010 03:05 (thirteen years ago) link
Lives change like the weather
do u think that taylor and kanye's relationship existed for longer than a few months...hence the changing of the weather??
― dayo, Friday, 29 October 2010 03:06 (thirteen years ago) link
she makes Kanye's conduct into some kind of life-altering burden of shame that he's unnecessarily carrying around with him - as if he's an unwed teen mother or a drug addict or a trying-to-reform ex-con or something
to be fair whenever Kanye writes at length being all despairing about his actions, this is kind of how he characterizes himself.
― Brad Nelson (BradNelson), Friday, 29 October 2010 05:31 (thirteen years ago) link
with "innocent" i sort of imagine that kanye got all obsessive for a few weeks (because he's like that) and kept calling or writing her ALL-CAPS EMAILS about how bad he felt and how he was lying awake at night wondering WHATS WRONG WITH ME
loooool. the sad thing is it's probably true.
we know that taylor swift grew up on a christmas tree farm, right?
― lex lex lex lex lex on the track BOW (lex pretend), Friday, 29 October 2010 09:01 (thirteen years ago) link
i like how this review is so quick to note that she "sang in key." poor taylor, she's on constant pitch-watch. (given that, i give her credit for continuing to do these kind of acoustic shows. whatever she lacks as a singer, it's not self-confidence.)
― a tenth level which features a single castle (tipsy mothra), Friday, 29 October 2010 12:55 (thirteen years ago) link
i do know that the first time i see her perform "dear john" live i'm going to be on fucking tenterhooks on the fireworks line
― lex lex lex lex lex on the track BOW (lex pretend), Friday, 29 October 2010 13:01 (thirteen years ago) link
Spotify giveth, and Spotify taketh away. Speak Now has gone back to being premium content so I can't listen again anyway.
Which of the other two albums should I listen to instead?
― Wheal Dream, Friday, 29 October 2010 14:21 (thirteen years ago) link
haven't heard her first record in toto, but Fearless is great!
― markers, Friday, 29 October 2010 14:28 (thirteen years ago) link
actually, thanks for the reminder -- I should get her first record
Decided to listen to them in order.
But MAN are the spotify adverts during Taylor Swift albums a whole world of o_0
*I* could be a Disney star if I went to Celebrity Talent Academy? Really?
― Wheal Dream, Friday, 29 October 2010 14:30 (thirteen years ago) link
depends - the s/t title has more filler but is more "country", slightly rougher, less focused on high school scenarios; fearless is a lot more romantic. fearless is the one that made me love taylor swift.
i would say "tim mcgraw", "teardrops on my guitar", "picture to burn", "should've said no", "our song" and "mary's song" off the debut, then all of fearless.
― lex lex lex lex lex on the track BOW (lex pretend), Friday, 29 October 2010 14:30 (thirteen years ago) link
ha xps. yeah listening chronologically is always a good way to go for context-seeking.
― lex lex lex lex lex on the track BOW (lex pretend), Friday, 29 October 2010 14:31 (thirteen years ago) link
OK, I'm going through the selected singles from the first album but seriously - I am having trouble with the banjos. Think I'm getting PTSD flashbacks to my teenage years and I'm not sure how long I can cope. ;-)
― Wheal Dream, Friday, 29 October 2010 14:33 (thirteen years ago) link
"stay beautiful" is worth listening to as well!
― prolego, Friday, 29 October 2010 14:36 (thirteen years ago) link
i like the s/t more than fearless tbh but it will certainly aggravate anyone's latent banjophobia
― ksh me thru the phone (c sharp major), Friday, 29 October 2010 14:40 (thirteen years ago) link
^^^ urgent and key
― Tim F, Friday, 29 October 2010 14:42 (thirteen years ago) link
I know that the discussion of "country music" signifiers just gets into a whole mess of culture and class and that for a lot of British people listening to it has a kind of glossy exotic appeal BUT ... jesus I fucking hate banjos and this whole album is just giving me this cringe like I'm gonna get beaten up on the school bus because that's my strongest association with pop-country coz that's where I heard it the most. And the high school theme of her work is really heightening that feeling.
That said, the US country version of Should've Said No is actually way more powerful in mandolin and fiddle styling than in the big pop production I heard earlier.
― Wheal Dream, Friday, 29 October 2010 14:49 (thirteen years ago) link
Still.
There's this running idea (both in Should've Said No - that "you might have still had me" and in Mine, the single of which is still playing on Spodify) of the people within relationships being things, being possessions you can own, and she uses this kind of terminology again and again. And I don't know if it's because she's young and still has naive ideas about what romance is, or if it's because of the culture she grew up in (women are chattel in the conservative mindset, etc.) but it sticks out and it bothers me.
― Wheal Dream, Friday, 29 October 2010 14:55 (thirteen years ago) link
OK, that all said...
Her vocal *tone* on the first couple of songs on Fearless is really amazing, like, she actually manages to capture, really perfectly that breathless, obsessive, OMGI'mGoingToDie sensation that is the simultaneously circumscribed and expansive world of the teenage girl in the grips of a crush. (Which is the best feeling in the world, really.) And her little breaths and whoops on Jump Then Fall are really quite amazing.
Yeah, OK, sorry to hijack yr thread with all this old news but I guess I do see what the fuss is about.
― Wheal Dream, Friday, 29 October 2010 15:04 (thirteen years ago) link
do you think she's consciously using that kind of possessive language, though? xp
― dayo, Friday, 29 October 2010 15:08 (thirteen years ago) link
There's this running idea (both in Should've Said No - that "you might have still had me" and in Mine, the single of which is still playing on Spodify) of the people within relationships being things, being possessions you can own, and she uses this kind of terminology again and again.
out of curiosity, do you have the same objection to "my girl," "my guy," "my sharona," "sweet child o'mine," "be my baby," "little t&a," "jolene," and about 25,000 other songs?
― a tenth level which features a single castle (tipsy mothra), Friday, 29 October 2010 15:09 (thirteen years ago) link
Kinda, but it depends on the context and use.
There's a difference between saying something like "my baby" or "my Sharona" where it's an adjective modifying an existent person, and refering to a person as "mine" which reduces them to thing-ness. Like there's a difference between introducing someone as "this is John, my boyfriend" and putting a label on someone that says "TAYLOR'S BOYFRIEND, PROPERTY OF MS. SWIFT NOT TO BE TAKEN AWAY."
But yeah, this is a recurrant problem of mine with lots of aspects of popular culture, so no, I'm not just picking on Swift. I don't like anything that reduces a partner to a piece of *property* rather than a human being with whom a relationship must be negotiated.
― Wheal Dream, Friday, 29 October 2010 15:16 (thirteen years ago) link
I dunno, outside of that one line "you are the best thing that's ever been mine" I just don't get that sense of ownership at all - I mean ffs the song is about struggling to pay bills together & staying together through tough times
― my other display name is a random wacky phrase (dayo), Friday, 29 October 2010 15:21 (thirteen years ago) link
"you are the best thing that's ever been mine" seems less possessory when the preceding line is "you made a rebel of a careless man's careful daughter." possessions don't do that AFAIK.
― Tim F, Friday, 29 October 2010 15:23 (thirteen years ago) link
I'll differ with most of y'all: "Enchanted" is one of the meh songs. The slow part is nice, but the power chords, in this instance, are abrupt and tacky.
― sandra lee, gimme your alcohol (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 29 October 2010 15:25 (thirteen years ago) link
what do you think of 'when you were mine' or 'be mine'
― my other display name is a random wacky phrase (dayo), Friday, 29 October 2010 15:26 (thirteen years ago) link
H8 H8 H8 the phrase "be mine" with a real passion. But I recognise this is personal prejudice.
― Wheal Dream, Friday, 29 October 2010 15:30 (thirteen years ago) link
how about 'i got you'
― my other display name is a random wacky phrase (dayo), Friday, 29 October 2010 15:34 (thirteen years ago) link