RPGs are better in 2D. Discuss!

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You can beat chrono trigger in like 10 hours with an emulator and that "speed up" key!

― dan i. (Dan I.), Tuesday, 27 September 2005 23:56 (eighteen years ago) link

This is a fact! Not if you turn on Combat System B or whatever though.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 28 September 2005 13:53 (eighteen years ago) link

I will admit that ads for Chrono Trigger made me want to buy a Playstation.

― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 28 September 2005 13:55 (eighteen years ago) link

There were ADS for Chrono Trigger?

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 28 September 2005 13:57 (eighteen years ago) link

RPGs are better in real life. Disscus!

― cozen (Cozen), Wednesday, 28 September 2005 14:14 (eighteen years ago) link

There were ads for Chrono Trigger all over TV! During, um, the Saturday morning cartoon shows.

SHUT UP I WAS HUNGOVER, OKAY???????????

― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 28 September 2005 14:20 (eighteen years ago) link

I always like the 2D ones better. I love Earthbound and FFV on the SNES most of all :D

― Jared S D (Child of the Night), Wednesday, 28 September 2005 19:53 (eighteen years ago) link

Although it lacks a bit of the depth of a genuine RPG, Dungeon Siege 2 is definitely the best game in and around that genre i've ever played on PC. it looks awesome and plays so easily.

mind you, i just got the new PC version of Fable, so...

― Lee F# (fsharp), Thursday, 29 September 2005 09:19 (eighteen years ago) link

I know I was ragging on Earthbound 3 or whatever when I started this thread, but since it turns out Lunar DS is crap according to various accounts I'm now actually looking forward to it. Also the fact that the Flash countdown is about 1h45m from zero has got me stoked (I have nothing else to look forward to this AM since delivering my 9am shift briefing)

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 29 September 2005 12:15 (eighteen years ago) link

Oh, apparently it's a game called "Contact" wherein you help a boy named "Cherry" find pieces of a spaceship for some old professor and it ain't coming out until February. What the fuck ever. Teach me to read one blog I guess.

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 29 September 2005 12:18 (eighteen years ago) link

What if it was Don Cherry and you captured pieces of the spaceship by playing avant-garde jazz trumpet riffs at them while your children distracted MOBs by striking buffalo stances and singing mopey pop-indie songs at them?

― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Thursday, 29 September 2005 12:38 (eighteen years ago) link

Then at the end you have to fight the CANADIAN Don Cherry.

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 29 September 2005 12:53 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah I'm bummed about lunar

what other 2D RPGs are there to look forward to on the DS?

xenosaga 1 + 2?

I might have to import mother 1 + 2 now then

in japanese though?

― cozen (Cozen), Thursday, 29 September 2005 13:14 (eighteen years ago) link

Children Of Mana is coming out for the DS. Oh HELL yes. Also there's a FF Crystal Chronicles for DS on the way, supposedly the FFCC gameplay is a lot closer to the Mana series/Seiken Densetsu? I hope so.

At any rate, yes, more 2D RPGs in the works.

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 29 September 2005 13:43 (eighteen years ago) link

I believe that is the sound of me finally breaking down and buying a DS.

― Laura H. (laurah), Friday, 30 September 2005 01:14 (eighteen years ago) link

who has played through earthbound then?

I just started pottering around in it in the emulator and I'm really impressed

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 1 October 2005 13:23 (eighteen years ago) link

hey why don't you buy it?!

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 1 October 2005 13:34 (eighteen years ago) link

http://image.lik-sang.com/images/90/ps2-wanda-to-kyozou-jap.jpg

― cozen (Cozen), Tuesday, 4 October 2005 20:32 (eighteen years ago) link

"wanda to kyozou"

― cozen (Cozen), Tuesday, 4 October 2005 20:38 (eighteen years ago) link

Laura H. and I had a huge fight over this!

― Jonothong Williamsmang (ex machina), Tuesday, 4 October 2005 20:50 (eighteen years ago) link

Disgaea is 2d and is the best final fantasy tactics style rpg i've played since final fantasy tactics. It's eating my life up though.

― jeffrey (johnson), Tuesday, 4 October 2005 20:57 (eighteen years ago) link

what was your take jon?

― cozen (Cozen), Tuesday, 4 October 2005 21:09 (eighteen years ago) link

Disgaea >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FFT

― adam (adam), Tuesday, 4 October 2005 21:13 (eighteen years ago) link

I am a purist. Laura is LAME and thinks that FFX is amazing and stuff. I hate new FF games sooooo much. She also has only played console RPGs and not computer ones ever.

I also think that games should not allow saving and that "killing" a character in combat should be a bigger deal. Like in Bard's Tale!

― Jonothong Williamsmang (ex machina), Tuesday, 4 October 2005 21:21 (eighteen years ago) link

Jon likes to make sweeping generalizations about the current state of RPGs even though he hasn't played one since FFVII, which he didn't like. I never said FFX was great; it was OK. FFVII was amazing, and I'm sorry that he hates fun and doesn't realize this.

― Laura H. (laurah), Tuesday, 4 October 2005 23:35 (eighteen years ago) link

Also, re: Jon's no saving policy, he thinks that gamers who end up in untenable or even unwinnable situations get what they deserve, but that's lame and encourages caution, not adventure. There's some merit to the notion of making people take battles and deaths more seriously, and one way to do it is by having fewer save points, not none. I remember some marathon struggles between save points that truly pushed me to strategize and use all my resources. It's fair to criticize the game design, and ask for more deliberacy in the use of save points, but a total overreaction to call for a moratorium on them entirely.

― Laura H. (laurah), Tuesday, 4 October 2005 23:44 (eighteen years ago) link

She also has only played console RPGs and not computer ones ever.

Wrong. I played Ultima VIII, and Diablo, though not extensively.

― Laura H. (laurah), Tuesday, 4 October 2005 23:48 (eighteen years ago) link

Diablo is kiddy shit. No depth!

― Jonothong Williamsmang (ex machina), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 01:08 (eighteen years ago) link

Well, also I suggested it would be interesting to have agame without explicit save points... the state of your game is always "saved"

― Jonothong Williamsmang (ex machina), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 01:08 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah, and what happens if you fuck up and cripple your characters? Or find yourself in a part of the game where you're out of your depth/not properly equipped to survive? Plus it gives you no flexibility to go back and explore alternate paths or parts of the game you missed without having to play the entire thing through from the beginning.

Diablo is kiddy shit. No depth!

My point was not that Diablo is deep, but that you were wrong.

― Laura H. (laurah), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 01:31 (eighteen years ago) link

Also you are an RPG rockist!

― Laura H. (laurah), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 01:48 (eighteen years ago) link

I like games where you can't see the dungeon unless you have torches

― Jonothong Williamsmang (ex machina), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 01:52 (eighteen years ago) link

back to Akalabeth with you, then!

― kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 06:57 (eighteen years ago) link

Thanks to the PSP downgrader I was up really late last night playing Dragon Warrior/Quest 1 (which is hardcore with the torches) (and the every-three-second random encounter with fucking slimes). It really was Final Fantasy 3/6 and 7 that fucked up RPGs, wasn't it? Emo cutscene animu.

3D RPGs worth playing that I can't believe I forgot before: CLOUDS OF XEEN and DARKSIDE OF XEEN.

― adam (adam), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 10:38 (eighteen years ago) link

I want a psp for emulation but i don't know if it will outweigh my want of a DS for DSness.

― jeffrey (johnson), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 13:43 (eighteen years ago) link

I think JWillems needs to sit down and crank away at a FIRE EMBLEM for a couple hours or maybe days and then come back with his report on how "constant save" and "death matters" affects game enjoyment.

I thought those ideas sounded cool too until I actually had to deal with them, then I realized they're the anti-fun.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 5 October 2005 14:08 (eighteen years ago) link

Honestly, I like insane dungeon crawls more than all this fucking handholding otaku bs.

― Jonothong Williamsmang (ex machina), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 14:12 (eighteen years ago) link

Anyway FMV cutscenes kind of kill any game that uses them, not just RPGs.

Seriously Jon steal a copy of Fire Emblem for the GBA. It's awesome, it's exciting, it's great, then you get fucked and have to start all over from the beginning.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 5 October 2005 14:16 (eighteen years ago) link

RPGs for consoles/handhelds should NOT be like coin-op shmups

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 5 October 2005 14:17 (eighteen years ago) link

I just think there needs to be balance!

― Jonothong Williamsmang (ex machina), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 14:32 (eighteen years ago) link

Fire Emblem is fucking annoying. Dungeon crawls and the ability to screw around and do whatever one wants is a whole lot more fun than super linear epic stories about big eyes and swords and omg Aeris DIES etc.

Is there much love for Arena/Daggerfall/Morrowind here? I like the sandbox mixed with level progression and increases in abilities/power to destroy the shit out of whole towns.

― adam (adam), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 15:10 (eighteen years ago) link

Is there much love for Arena/Daggerfall/Morrowind here?

RPGs in 3D are great, too!

― kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 15:49 (eighteen years ago) link

Laura made the argument (in person) to me that all the secrets in the FF series are what gives it playability and depth. NO.

This is non-integrated tripe for 14 year old boys who love HOW AWESOME shit is. Think about it. Most of the secrets are simply HUGE SPELLS and HUGE WEAPONS.

― Jonothong Williamsmang (ex machina), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 16:15 (eighteen years ago) link

http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000497061899/

they're remaking all the 2D Final Fantasies into 3D for the DS.

― kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 16:20 (eighteen years ago) link

Laura made the argument (in person) to me that all the secrets in the FF series are what gives it playability and depth. NO.

You enjoy taking secondary points that I make and turning them into my entire argument. I think that secrets, multiple paths, etc. give depth and replayability to games, as opposed moving on one linear path from event to event. I enjoy the extra challenge they provide, particularly in games that I love and want to extend as long as possible.

Things are are way more important to me than : game design, storytelling, character development, battle systems, ETC ETC ETC.

― Laura H. (laurah), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 16:33 (eighteen years ago) link

linear vs. non-linear isn't the point. Listen, we are talking about games where you hit buttons to get numbers to increase over long, long periods of time. They're all fucking linear. And the HUGE SPELLS and HUGE WEAPONS are an endpoint of the line put there for addicts to get a little more replay value out of their game after they beat Shaitankopf.

Fire Emblem, FFT, FFTA and even Chrono Trigger, Terranigma, Secret of Mana, etc. would have gotten dropped like they were hot by me if I hadn't had some interest in fighting my way to the next plot point through the storyline. Non-linear dungeon crawls = no sense of purpose or discovery = I'm going to go play outside.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 5 October 2005 16:40 (eighteen years ago) link

Most of the secrets are simply HUGE SPELLS and HUGE WEAPONS.

In my opinion, the best secrets are the ones that unlock extra parts of the story and character histories, actually. But the kind of secrets you're talking about are still classic. I, for one, enjoy the challenge of hunting down obscure enemies and killing them for awesome weapons. CONDEMN ME IF YOU MUST.

― Laura H. (laurah), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 16:42 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm going to take away the power adapters for all the video game systems and make you play nethack.

― Jonothong Williamsmang (ex machina), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 16:46 (eighteen years ago) link

The thing that pisses me off more than ANYTHING about typical squaresoft fare (not Enix so much!) is that you almost ALWAYS have several points in the game where you have to walk in circles getting in ultra-repetitive fights (dungeon crawl! non-linear!) to rustle up higher stats and pay for better gear because some miniboss fight down the hall or across the river is completely unwinnable without numbers significantly higher than the numbers you had against the LAST miniboss. I WOULD RATHER BE IN A PROJECT MEETING. OH MY FUCKING GOD.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 5 October 2005 16:47 (eighteen years ago) link

And don't get me wrong, I loved FF3 and FF7 wasn't even that horrible, but to speak of character development with these games is insane.

Also, that spell in FF7 that takes 3 minutes and shows half the solar system = DUD

― Jonothong Williamsmang (ex machina), Wednesday, 5 October 2005 16:47 (eighteen years ago) link

Skipping 82 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

it's still in beta form, i think. and only in japanese.

― kingfish cold slither (kingfish 2.0), Saturday, 12 November 2005 00:55 (eighteen years ago) link

I can try to translate it tomorrow if anyone has a desire to know what it says.

― Laura H. (laurah), Saturday, 12 November 2005 00:56 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah i can't believe someone did this! i guess you can play it if you have an nes emulator and ff2j rom. i can't read japanese though :((

site

i think it was linked from insertcredit

xxpostss

― sleep (sleep), Saturday, 12 November 2005 01:08 (eighteen years ago) link

Is it sad that retrograde emulation seems like it could do a lot for so many games?
Or could you consider it almost in the same vein as something like the hipster fuzzbox revival from 2001? Strokes/White Stripes etc. fuck glossy electror&b, we want tom petty but newish kind of sentiment?

Which brings the question = is there a sense of vitality in heavily pixelated, limited-palette video games that fades away as the graphics and sound become more and more polished (expensive-looking)?

Also if someone would like to delete that post from last weekend when I was tanked out of my skull and somehow still typing, that would be heaven. Gah.

― TOMBOT, Saturday, 12 November 2005 05:18 (eighteen years ago) link

FFX = "Toxic"
FF = "Like A Virgin"

― TOMBOT, Saturday, 12 November 2005 05:44 (eighteen years ago) link

But toxic is incredible?

― jeffrey (johnson), Saturday, 12 November 2005 06:01 (eighteen years ago) link

Is it sad that retrograde emulation seems like it could do a lot for so many games?

With simpler hardware & graphics, you have to focus more on the abstract. you have to put more emphasis on the gameplay & design-within-limitations since you can't as easily wow the crowds with a bloom-lit, fog-surrounded, realtime fully-rendered drow elf chick with big gazoombas. (etc)

Maybe that's what they're aiming for in the Revolution; Emphasis on gameplay & design over getting a slightly shinier sheen projected on a lump of shit on the floor of Doom 4.

We'll see.

― kingfish cold slither (kingfish 2.0), Saturday, 12 November 2005 06:32 (eighteen years ago) link

I think you focus too much on the technical project side of things (as befits an engineer!) and not enough on what I think I'm starting to just understand myself- the enhanced storytelling (masking effect, iconic representation etc) that shines through in poorer-gfx environments

It ties in maybe a little bit with whatever "rogueism" shapes up to be, in my mind - there's this identification with the character borne not just out of empathy built via "mistakes translate 100%"* but just because "this generic-looking avatar could be ME" (more interesting and complicated, when you consider Dan's & Laura's input about character naming and design)

(then you think about how Spinktor, cozen, et al. all really seem to dig Earthbound above and beyond all else - hmmmm)

Whether the Revo actually goes in this direction, we'll see. I tend to figure Nintendo has a better grasp of the whole masking effect concept better than a lot of other folks by and large, though on the face of it Master Chief is probably easier to imagine as an extension of self (faceless warrior) than Mario (mustachioed plumber)

*which I can tell is a big factor for our Jdubz

― TOMBOT, Saturday, 12 November 2005 07:31 (eighteen years ago) link

In terms of the masking effect, what about Gordon Freeman? You know his face, you know his name, but you never have dialogue, and you're always the center of attention. A weird mix of Everyman incarnated as one particular man(an MIT physics post-doc, in this case).

Who wants to bring "Hero with a Thousand Faces" into this?

― kingfish cold slither (kingfish 2.0), Saturday, 12 November 2005 08:28 (eighteen years ago) link

Tombot, what's the link for the post you want taken out?

― Laura H. (laurah), Saturday, 12 November 2005 08:35 (eighteen years ago) link

RPGs are better in 2D. Discuss!

― TOMBOT, Tuesday, 15 November 2005 19:54 (eighteen years ago) link

two weeks pass...

okay, I like Earthbound.

― kingfish hobo juckie (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 30 November 2005 04:59 (eighteen years ago) link

me too.

― jeffrey (johnson), Wednesday, 30 November 2005 14:11 (eighteen years ago) link

I have to work a 12 hour shift this Saturday, basically all alone in the office providing "coverage" so our stupid "customer" gets a warm fuzzy.

Hmm.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 30 November 2005 14:13 (eighteen years ago) link

four weeks pass...

BTW re: my Stokely Carmichael with a giant katana thing, my latest FF:Tactics attempt is led not by Ramza, but "Shabazz."

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 28 December 2005 15:53 (eighteen years ago) link

three months pass...

HEY LOOK
Redefining "Cartoony" Game Art

I didn't know where else to put this. INTERESTING!!! Also SCOTT MCCLOUD REFERENCE = AWESOME THANK YOU

― TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 16:25 (eighteen years ago) link

I like the Half-Life 2/Unity/ZORK trinity comparison a lot.

― TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Wednesday, 19 April 2006 16:27 (eighteen years ago) link

http://www.qwantz.com/comics/comic2-562.png

― BUTT IS THE LONELIEST NUMBER (Adrian Langston), Saturday, 22 April 2006 19:05 (eighteen years ago) link

majorMUD anyone?

― get ye flask, Monday, 24 April 2006 05:24 (eighteen years ago) link

For my birthday I got Dragon Warrior VIII & a new TV for the PS2, so this may have to be subtitled to Fuck It, I Like Cel-Shading Too

― TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Monday, 24 April 2006 12:46 (eighteen years ago) link

three weeks pass...

[spam for specialized services in gold-farming and cock-sucking removed]

― Britney, Thursday, 18 May 2006 11:15 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah well anyway the lineup for upcoming DS RPGs (all basically in 2D) is looking sweet and makes me glad that in June I can get Ally her own DS Lite so I can have my fat old one back.

― TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Thursday, 18 May 2006 15:36 (eighteen years ago) link

i could rock some of those... which one you going to go for first tom?

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 18 May 2006 15:41 (eighteen years ago) link

Contact and Pokemon Mysterious Dungeon are going to both be must-haves for me I think. FF3 too.

― TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Thursday, 18 May 2006 15:55 (eighteen years ago) link

http://media.nintendo.com/mediaFiles/586bcbd7-4088-45a7-92d5-e1d3ba0f4227.jpg

CONFLICTED EMOTIONS (anyone played it?)

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Thursday, 18 May 2006 16:05 (eighteen years ago) link

(it's fire emblem for GC, fwiw)

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Thursday, 18 May 2006 16:06 (eighteen years ago) link

I'll be getting fire emblem on the GC for certain, I am thinking of altering my stance to "better in 2.5D" actually (cf Contact for DS)

― TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Thursday, 18 May 2006 17:49 (eighteen years ago) link

speaking of tactical games (slocki pay attention) there's a WWII Panzer tactical game and a Star Trek tactical game (from Bethesda!) coming out for the DS too!

― TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Thursday, 18 May 2006 17:50 (eighteen years ago) link

WHOAAAAA!!!!!!

― JW (ex machina), Thursday, 18 May 2006 17:51 (eighteen years ago) link

What era of Star Trek?

― Laurah (laurah), Saturday, 20 May 2006 12:22 (seventeen years ago) link

i saw the panzer game!! it looked pretty good... although i only saw screenshots and they didn't look in-game.

fire emblem for gc is kind of a weird proposition for me, for some reason these games work much better in my head as portable things.

― s1ocki (slutsky), Saturday, 20 May 2006 15:16 (seventeen years ago) link

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