Hip Hop taken to new levels.

I feel this post shouldn't be lost among Nihilist's other posts in this thread.

fwiw-- I also agree with the one post way up at the top, on how some of those "progressive" elements James mentioned are contrary to what Hip-hop is fundamentally about. I'm not saying those are bad ideas or that experimentation in hip-hop shouldn't happen/isn't possible, blah, blah, blah. Just that there is a reason why Schoenberg/James Joyce isn't a larger influence on Hip-hop. At a certain point it wouldn't be recognizable as hip-hop. The emphasis on Rhyming/Back Beat/Samples etc, etc, that was also mentioned up top, would be dashed.

He's very proud of his 'provocations' and has said so before, and then complains when he gets trashed

So I deserve this bullying because my opinion is stated in a provocative way? Interesting.
Rather than arguing the points I make, personal attacks and e-stalking is a lot better. Comparisons to other board members who are apparently held in disfavor, also very mature.

Man, this place is fucking cliquish. God forbid I disagree with the mighty AllMusic Guide reviewer. Congratulations on yr efame. I hope it makes you lots of efriends that you can ebully and estalk me with.

Why? Do you have to listen to LIttle Richard and Chuck Berry before wanting to hear stuff that suits your personal tastes better?

I don't really want to get started in this argument again, but my response to this would be that most people who become serious rock music fans start out - aside from childhood flirtations with pop - with "classic" rock, some sort of starting point in the rock genre from which they place their values - what aesthetics they value in music, and that this perspective is expanded over time. I'm not insisting that everyone listen to Kurtis Blow in order to "get" hip hop - and this is how I think Ned originally misunderstood me - but that everyone should understand - or try to understand - fully the hip hop AESTHETIC and value system before they can truly evaluate an artist.
Ned took exception to my assumption that he had not done this, which I presumed from looking at his 'favorite albums' list. I can understand why he would be upset to a certain extent, because I AM presuming this knowledge without knowing his listening experience, but I was arguing that the list spoke for itself - it wasn't HIM that I was dissing, but the perspective that the list displayed, a value system that I would argue lacks perspective. He then followed that by saying that I lack the same perspective; i agreed. We ended on a sour note. Or something along those lines.

Please ignore this post if it insights the fire in your belly.

Damn skippy.

can you give us a precis? or a few pointers? describe what it is from your pov? or is this gonna stay at some meta level?

I am afraid I am leaving myself dangling here so I'm going to explain what I mean a little better: The assumption is often that "whitening" of the music is inherently "progressive," and I was suggesting that this is not so. Note that whitening does not neccessarily have to do with the skin color of the musician - for instance, Dave Matthews Band minus Dave Matthews recording a hip hop album would still be creating a hip hop album with a rock aesthetic and therefore it would be REgressive rather than PROgressive. So "whitening" in the case in which I am using it refers to the values inherent in the musicians' musical ideas. White CULTURE rather than white PEOPLE.

can you give us a precis? or a few pointers? describe what it is from your pov? or is this gonna stay at some meta level?

While my musical values come from a more hip hopist perspective simply because that is what I surrounded myself with as a kid, and then growing up, (jazz also), perhaps I have a different perspective than a lot of people here. I don't want to act like I'm some hip hop scholar or something though here to educate the masses, because I'm not at all. Forreal, the best way to do it is explore it yrself, read about the artists, etc. Even if you don't listen to ALL the artists from the early 80s, understanding WHY the music was created - for example, that hip hop is based on deconstruction and reconstruction of older song forms, repetition, percussive drive, James Brown style drumming, the fact that it was initially made as dance music...all stuff that is important to know....a "hip hopist" would say that a rapper using a live band is NOT "real hip hop"; I disagree. But I think a lot of the time rock critics would use use of rock instrumentation or values as a "maturation" of hip hop - (thus the vaunted position of the Roots on critics polls) rather than seeing sample-based music as its own legitimate musical aesthetic.

"The assumption"? from whom?

James.
You are asking for whiter hip hop.
Admit it.

I think hip hop has been asking for whiter hip hop since it was born. I love that footage of Afrika Bambaata raving about Gary Numan and him DJing it back in the day. Kraftwerk anyone?

(You know, white guys like Numan and Hutter And Schneider who use "instruments")

Different from the race of the artist. Bambaataa created music in the hip hop aesthetic, which of course overlaps rock music in a good 50% of its values.

Know what's a great song?

PS: Seriously, check out World Destruction.
R-R-R-Reagan.

Ah, so "white-ification" = "long instrumental solos"... like Jimi Hendrix, or almost all of jazz.

This whole over-analyzing and adjective-laden term assignment about the AESTHETIC of hip hop is just really boggling. I'm very eager about the history of hip-hop, as it is VERY fascinating, but discussing this any further at this point is like arguing over what "punk" means, as opposed to just talking about the "roots" of punk or whatever.

Although I hope we never have a Paul Simon/ Peter Gabriel of hip hop.

Though it's funny that ddrake considers this track "bridging" the hip-hop aesthetic, as I thought it was just Bill Laswell wanking over large glam rock beats with two guys shouting awkwardly over it.

as far as hip hop threads go, some have turned the discarded Mind/Body split into pure Body -- as if that is what Hip Hop is supposed to be, though it never has been from the very beginning. The fascism of the Rump is as smothering as the fascism of the Mind.

I think the original poster got so much heat because he seemed to have this misconception about what rap is, and then he suggested it should be made more "progressive" by elements, which are either not progressive or already exist in rap. So, before you criticize rap for being "not progressive", you should listen to it a bit more.

Uh, Wyclef Jean?

The next NWW project, which Stapleton is working on at the moment, is going to be a hip-hop album. It will also feature a very talented female rapper.

Film at eleven.

stence where do you think I live? this his puzzling the hell out of me

what I said:

it's foul enough to make you reexamine anything you might've thought about his previous work

I'd stand by that, and don't think it's actually that reactionary a position from a critical standpoint

3. Unusal or experimental vocal intonation and phrasing. Or vocal lines processed electronically with more than just a vocoder.

Lyrics Born. If you're not J3ss H4rv3ll, you may likey a lot. He's very chameleonic and unprecedented. And funky as fuck.

4. Hip hop with heavy use of non-western influences and sounds (African, Indian, Asian) or peripheral western sounds. And not just a programmed beep vaguely rooted in a non-western scale.

MODERN HIP-HOP RADIO TO THREAD