New Burial album. More info?

dance music is the oldest shit on the planet. house and techno music are the modern examples of the most basic percussive music that dates back as long as the idea of music has existed. it is not significanly different in intent or execution from tribal drumming.

-- pipecock

this is just plain wrong! the earliest forms of music are vocal, the earliest instruments weren't drums but flutes! the idea that bones could be struck together to make a sound seems to have arisen nearly a thousand years AFTER the idea of blowing through them to make tones.

the earliest african music is chanted vocal harmony music, which proves my contentious that polyphonic progressive trance music is actually the most african dance music.

i mean, proves my contention

theo parrish = a mere imitator of europeam avant-garde masters like boulez and stockhausen

dance has existed a long long time, and it doesnt need synthesizers, ableton live, or max/msp. all you need is a funky beat and maybe a little melody

and i mean, this is ridiculous. do you fantasize about ancient people dancing to 4/4 drum rhythms? because that's a fantasy. most old dance styles are based on dancing to a rhythm but not necessarily to rhythm instruments. see the entire history of european dance, asian dance, south american dance, even most african dance.

sorry, pipecock, you've bought into a fundamentally racist story of dance music where people dancing to backbeat-heavy 60s soul is juxtaposed w/ the stereotyped image of zulus bouncing to tribal drumming.

"all you need is a funky beat and maybe a little melody" - you know, which is why pygmys, uh, flutes and reeds, and the north africans invented the, uh, oud, and in central africa they invented mbira and highlife, and the maasai invented polyphonic choral chants to go w/ their dances, etc etc

funny, you dont need ANY instruments to play percussion, you just need some hands to clap together or a foot to stomp on the ground. yeah, the voice was used along with it, but these dont require any technology outside of the human body that can be found archaeologically! these are the most basic components of music, and it is not dependent on technology in any way. hence the idea of needing just a rhythm and a melody.

hand-clappin' foot-stompin' = not really part of many traditional musics, you know

and if you can make one tone with your voice, you can play that tone rhythmically before the idea of more than one tone (or melody/harmony) come into it. shit, you can grunt in rhythm.

"hand-clappin' foot-stompin' = not really part of many traditional musics"

according to what?

according, to, you know, name me a traditional music that you can listen to a field recording of and we'll talk about it.

i'm sorry, though, my brief rant completely avoids engaging w/ the main intellectual thrust of your argument, which is that Burial has transcended his genre of music by stripping away the backwards thought that has driven the creativity in two genres of music that i have loved for a long time into the ground

"...what creativity driving backwards thought has burial stripped away to transcend his genre ???

ya'll talkn some crazy shit bro...

-- pollywog"

the backwards thought is that there is some "standard" of production values that are needed to make a valid song in the genre. the trend in drum and bass and dubstep is to sound as nearly alike as possible to every other artist, i cant really figure that one out. how exactly is an individual supposed to be able to express themselves properly when they have to fit into a super-limited framework?

what are some of these "standard" production values needed to make valid dubstep ???

who says any individual has to fit within a super-limited framework to be able to express themselves within the genre ??? the dubstep though police over at their elitist forum ???

who you been talking to ??? maybe just the wobbleclones yeah ???

...oh yeah sure blackdown says toasty, boxcutter et al aren't dubstep they're breakstep but he's an idiot pushing his own agenda of whatever that lo weight shit is he produces is cos those guys piss all over his sound

dude should just give up and just write about the stuff, champion it instead of wanting to have his cake and eat it too...

sets a bad example to all the fanboys at dubstepforum thinking if he can make shit music and call it dubstep it gives them free license to clone the innovators as well...

...still, he's only following in kode 9's footsteps. I mean his album was shit, his compositions and production are sub par and no amount of bass theory and post jungle apocalypta rants can make up for crap tunes

...as for burial, he'd have the easiest sound to clone but why would you want to ??? without the anonymous gimmick generating interest there really isn't much there musically challenging either

he's good and i like some of his tunes but he's not all that...

...now reso on the other hand OMG !!!

This thread is hilarious.

-- Mister Craig, Saturday, 17 November 2007 12:29 (9 hours ago) Bookmark Link

^^^heh...it has it's moments

...and before everyone jumps on blackdown and kode9's dick and down my throat just go listen to their tunes with a critical ear and forget about their status in the scene

hell, just saying that in my last post woulda got be banned and death threatened all over again on dubstepforum...

...deleting sample sources to protect the anonymous

FUNNNNNYYYYY CARRRRNTS...

I first heard Untrue in a record store, and I thought it was an early DJ Spooky album with vocal things, which isn't really what I wanted to hear. :(

When I said as much in some electronic discussion forum based in the PacNW (ok, granted, I did called Untrue the most boring album of 2007 there), I got this as a personal email:

"Sir, in a few lines you have proven to be a vapid fuck. I vow to spit on you lest I cross your pussy path."

I do like how Burial's been able to give to electronic/atomspheric discussions the same kind of fan level throwdowns common in metal and hip-hop. If only someone could be this passionate defending, I dunno, Sigur Ros or other bands!

Apologies for my path of pussy.

^^^hahaha ,listen up son...

...it's not enough to like burial, you gotta love him and defend him, suffer for him and be prepared to die for him cos thats what his music suggests he would do for you

he is the ghost of christmas past, the deus ex machina, the kwisatz haderach of the hardcore continuum and if you don't know, then you're some neanderthal retard who understands nothing about soulful electronica and londons pre eminence in the world thereof :)

"Sir, in a few lines you have proven to be a vapid fuck. I vow to spit on you lest I cross your pussy path."

Haha oh come on if this was a hip-hop/metal forum this wouldn't be sent as a personal email.

I'm beginning to suspect that I might want to listen to this record before buying it as this thread rambles on.

...up the dosage !!!

I noticed a sample from Elliot Goldenthal's Alien 3 score on the first track of this CD

post very much in character, yada yada, etc.

Retards be retarding.

Mr V brings the pain as usual.

gah... internet scenesters are such a turn off.

this album is growing on me, but i still think playing voice samples on a midi keyboard is kind of silly sounding. guy has some really nice drones, though - would love to hear him explore that more. the clippety-cloppety drum sounds wear on me a little, too. it kind of hurts to listen to certain songs on headphones with those woodblock sounds hammering away.

pipecock you’re sounding as ridiculous as Omar S.

i still think playing voice samples on a midi keyboard is kind of silly sounding

Yeah it probably is. Nothing to do with Burial though.

I love Untrue. In fact, the dubstep genre made me go back and try to get acquainted with a line of genres that led up to it, e.g., jungle, drum-and-bass, 2-step, garage, and so forth.

As I understand it, most of those genres developed in the 90s. This makes me think that I completely missed the most interesting music of that decade (I was mostly focused on -- and uninspired by -- rock from the era)(n.1) The idea of pirate radio stations in London playing these new genres sounds a whole lot more exciting than 90s rock radio.

I wish I knew more about the differences between these genres. It seems clear that each new genre evolved from the next, but I don't have a good feel for where it all began (Chicago House maybe?) and how each new genre added or subtracted sounds/elements from their predecessors. Any info on this from you knowledgeable folks is, as always, appreciated.

__________________________
(n.1) Except for Nirvana, who were all-time great.

Daniel, probably the easiest thing is to just buy Simon Reynolds' Generation Ecstasy (or Energy Flash if you're in Europe). It tells this whole story with a special focus on the musics played on London pirate radio, ending with speed garage. Then you can read his (pretty amazing) 2-step article from 1999 on his website.

Back to the argument:

I do disagree with Pollywog, I thought the Kode 9/Spaceape album was great, better in fact than Burial. The best parts though were the ones that didn't sound much like dubstep orthodoxy - Kode 9 is actually a better hip hop producer than dubstep producer I think.

To be clear, Pipecock I'm not denying that all these musics that you like have "soul", rather I'm suspicious of this term as a valuable tool in discussing music. It's a black hole term: all that people can say is "i think this music has soul and that music doesn't" or "I think this music is more soulful than that music," and there's literally nothing you can say to add to that. It shuts down discussion, and in the process encourages lazy thinking (and generally unexamined canonical thinking to boot) where we don't know why one thing is better than another thing, IT JUST IS OKAY. Playing the soul-card is actually worse than playing the authenticity-card in this regard.

Generally, people who use this term a lot haven't thought much about why they use it, or what they're actually responding to when it pops into their head. True to form, you've had several opportunities to clarify what it is in Burial's music that makes you drag out the s-word beyond other evasive phrases like "expression", "transcends", escaping all the backwards thoughts etc... But of course if you wanted to do this you wouldn't have tried to shift the discussion towards soul in the first place.

"dance music is the oldest shit on the planet. house and techno music are the modern examples of the most basic percussive music that dates back as long as the idea of music has existed. it is not significanly different in intent or execution from tribal drumming. dance has existed a long long time, and it doesnt need synthesizers, ableton live, or max/msp. all you need is a funky beat and maybe a little melody. it is very simple. if youre relying on modern production gimmicks to excite people, that shit is novelty and not much else. drum and bass and dubstep were both music that was rhythmically interesting. they sacrificed that quality to become production trick music, which is why they are niche music that production geek people are interested in. they have become failures of what dance music is all about."

Even if we accept this, doesn't that effectively efface any difference between disco, house, techno etc. etc? Doesn't it render interesting sonic developments - like the specific sound of Rhythm & Sound releases - empty and meaningless?

Dance music, at least since the rise of electronic instrumentation, is at least as much about the sound-of-sounds as is it about melody, rhythm etc. It's not a binary choice between timeless compositions that can be played on any instrument on the one hand and sonic gimmicks or gear fetishism on the other. The two are always interwoven in various proportions in any dance music you look at. Sure, "I Feel Love" might be a great song, great performance from Donna etc., but it's also about that marvellous, totally distinctive synth arpeggio shimmer that Moroder extracts from his machines. Drum and bass was always already a "production trick music", from the very beginning producers were fascinated with the effect of particular techniques like pitchshifting, or with creating an entirely new sounding bassline (think of all the variations on basslines jungle produced just between 1993 and 1995).

The regression in jungle from the mid to the late nineties that you're referring to isn't primarily the tale of a shift from timeless expression to gimmicky production tricks. The rise in drum & bass's excessive fixations (eg. with creating an ever more subtle variation on an acid bassline) was an effect of a narrowing of the genre's horizons of possibility - which itself was partly due to a rejection of jungle's early days, which was seen as too gimmicky. By committing themselves to a more purist vision of what drum & bass was supposed to be, producers had no choice but to become more fixated on the minute details of production.

But that doesn't mean that purism is always bad and should be rejected in favour of "expression" - which sounds like an endorsement of things like Goldie collaborating with Noel Gallagher. It was precisely because early jungle narrowed its horizons of sonic possibility from the preceding hardcore techno that it was able to intensify certain aspects like the rhythms, the basslines. Ultimately the balance got shifted too far in that direction, but the move towards a certain purism and sonic fetishism was initially a productive component in jungle's development.

And let's not even start with 2-step, which for its entire lifespan was all about the brilliant exploitation of one new gimmick after another.

... And I say that last bit as someone who's generally not into purism in dance music. But my preference for more mutational sounds (which tend to be gimmicky in a different way - a la 2-step) doesn't prevent me from recognizing the potential validity of a purist approach.

It seems clear that each new genre evolved from the next...

...nah it was more like cross pollenation and contemporaneous evolution than a straight linear progression from one genre to the other

in all those genres there were artists who defied categorisation and crossed more than a few strictly defined boundaries...

...where'd it all begin ??? probably in jamaica, with soundsystem culture, versioning and dubbing out tunes which then drifted to the US and the UK by emigrants

and please don't capitalise my name TIM F, i don't like it...

Thank you for the recommendation, Tim. I'm going to seek out Reynolds' book.

...where'd it all begin ??? probably in jamaica, with soundsystem culture, versioning and dubbing out tunes which then drifted to the US and the UK by emigrants.

Yeah, I should have been more clear. I knew that, in many significant respects, these genres began in Jamaica. Largely through the recommendations of knowledgeable people here -- e.g., Alex in SF -- I've become a fan of a lot of roots reggae and dub (though, curiously, I haven't warmed up to post-roots Jamaican genres, like dancehall). I meant after the music migrated from Jamaica to England and the U.S. That's why I mentioned Chicago House as a possible starting point.

i don't think the starting point is a place, it's a piece of kit like a moog or fairlight, a drumulator or a roland 808...

...so contemporaneously in places like germany with kraftwerk or italo disco, in new york, chicago and detroit with hiphop, house and techno, people were using these same bits of gear and making it do different things which then got genrified, subgenrified and so on

electronica is not the story of a place and time in fixed linear thought. There is no continuum, there is though a woven lattice, an interconnected story of technology and man symbiotically creating musical art...

...what tended to happen though is, as the technology became more affordable, the poor talented people got hold of it and evolved the music even further, taking it from the 'intelligent' excesses of rich corporate producers to the streets and the underground then back into the mainstream limelight

and now we have burial who is deservedly occupying a prominent place in the lattice at a time when the structures and systems which governed the evolution have largely been deconstructed and made irrelevent by the internet...

"...what tended to happen though is, as the technology became more affordable, the poor talented people got hold of it and evolved the music even further, taking it from the 'intelligent' excesses of rich corporate producers to the streets and the underground then back into the mainstream limelight"

pollywog this seems like an excessively romantic and, for that reason, simplistic take on things to me.

Think of late nineties R&B and hip hop, where the rhythmic innovations were initiated almost exclusively on high-charting releases from major labels.

Your description does describe what happened in particular areas of music but I don't think it can be raised to the level of overarching narrative.

keeping it simple, yup thats me...

...I bet most of those high charting releases you talk of though were made by primarily poor to begin with, non classically trained or highly tutored studio engineers who came to prominence using cracked software and cheap gear then snapped up by A&R people in major labels with an eye for talent

i guess that's what pisses me off about dubstep. Is that there is a belief you don't have to be a musician or understand anything about music composition, you just have to make it sound good. Production values over substance the end being most of it sounds underdone...

...is the trademark burialesque crackle and rain hiss masking a distinct lack of substance ???

"...I bet most of those high charting releases you talk of though were made by primarily poor to begin with, non classically trained or highly tutored studio engineers who came to prominence using cracked software and cheap gear then snapped up by A&R people in major labels with an eye for talent"

... but then, in that case, who are these aristocratic bogeymen jealously guarding technology?

"i guess that's what pisses me off about dubstep. Is that there is a belief you don't have to be a musician or understand anything about music composition, you just have to make it sound good. Production values over substance the end being most of it sounds underdone..."

Again, this production vs music binary is one of the more pernicious talking points on this thread. I don't think dubstep reveals any more or less musicality than the preceding 'ardkore, jungle, 2-step, grime etc.

If we were going to nominate one element that is fatally missing from most dubstep, I'd say "levity" or "femininity" or "disco" ("Left Leg Out" excepted) before I'd say "musicality". Dubstep doesn't smile enough, basically.

... but then, in that case, who are these aristocratic bogeymen jealously guarding technology?

i shouldn't have to tell you...

...they might come after you too

Dubstep doesn't smile enough, basically.

...this are serious music made by serious cats

"you want smiley music listen to funky house or sum shit...
...this are serious music made by serious cats"

oh plz.

its true...

...most cats i've met on line or real life give their tunes some pretty serious titles

that's got to mean something ???

sometimes true statements are painful nonetheless.

"Production values over substance the end being most of it sounds underdone"

i wouldnt say dubstep is more about production values than the other genres mentioned but by trying to preserve elements of those genres while almost gentrifying them to get rid of the stuff that might be seen as 'embarassing', it lacks much in the way of movement/momentum. it makes a virtue of being inert. i say its biggest problem is trying to emulate dub (cos its 'proper music') more than dance music. grime doesnt have the high production values but at least theres something happening in it.

Yeah titchy is closer to the mark I think...

"gentrifying them to get rid of the stuff that might be seen as 'embarassing'"

This is basically what i mean by "rudeboyism" - what Simon Reynolds always described as a flava/cheese axis.

Dubstep doesn't smile enough, basically.

i say its biggest problem is trying to emulate dub (cos its 'proper music') more than dance music. grime doesnt have the high production values but at least theres something happening in it.

These are sharp observations. But, in both cases, dubstep's ''failings'' are by design. I'd guess artists working in the genre would admit these points and say its a necessary part of the asthetic.

FWIW -- in the right context -- I like the humorless, oppressive sound of dubstep (it's especially good during late-night walks when the weather turns colder). Also FWIW, I like the way dubstep emulates dub. It's a distinctive aesthetic, and it feeds the mood created by these songs: ghostly, angry, empty shells spinning in some nightmare distopia (I suppose these adjectives say as much about the music as saying it is or isn't ''soulful,'' but there it is).

I suppose there is nothing inherently wrong with dubstep being grim and humourless and dub-fixated. And indeed many of my favourite dubstep tracks (stuff like Pinch's "Qawalli" or Mala's "Forgive") fit this paradigm fairly well.

But if I wanted to explain why dubstep seems so much less involving to me than jungle, 2-step or grime were, I'd say it's largely because as a genre it focuses around these attributes too restrictively. There could be a lot more light and shade with this music.

(to be fair, a lot of dubstep doesn't sound particularly dub-fixated at all, and I'm not sure that the more dub-reverent material is necessarily less interesting)

"I suppose these adjectives say as much about the music as saying it is or isn't ''soulful,'' but there it is"

No they're good descriptions because they're evocative, they have some level of specificity despite being removed from the music qua music. "Soul" is so broad and overused that it struggles to evoke anything now.

"soul" = "real"

pollywog trails off a lot..........

The po-facedness of dubstep is really overstated by people sometimes. Every dubstep producer I've chingwagged with has seemed less than serious about their "work" , there are plenty of frankly silly tunes (Coki refixing Minnie Ripperton, the stupid fucking horns in Cockney thug, the doo doo doo in "Night"), silly song titles (Skream's "Wobble dat gut"), and plenty of jacking 4/4 soca/funky influenced stuff going on (mainly looking at Benga here, saw him dj for the fifth time or something last week and it was one of the best nights I've been to for an age).

I love the beatless tracks on this record. They seem like the realisation of the non-genre of "urban ambient" (shite name). Other examples would be "Fabio's Ghost" by Rufige Kru (b-side to Terminator II) or "Undersea Flight" by Matrix (b-side to Optical "To Shape Future".

Much of the rest of the record, sadly, is crap. "Arcangel" seems destined to be this years tokenistic urban/ black Top 10 entry for the cognoscenti, which is hilarious because it's crap.

In terms of being some kind of eulogy for rave, stuff I've heard recently from Geeneus (e.g. "Old Skool What") or Breakage "Shroud" utterly slay this on that count.

hey guys, i made this thread about soul a few months ago, it never went very far but had a few very interesting starting posts. maybe you can continue your discussion over there.

contrived emotion

"I love the beatless tracks on this record. They seem like the realisation of the non-genre of "urban ambient" (shite name). Other examples would be "Fabio's Ghost" by Rufige Kru (b-side to Terminator II) or "Undersea Flight" by Matrix (b-side to Optical "To Shape Future".

Much of the rest of the record, sadly, is crap. "Arcangel" seems destined to be this years tokenistic urban/ black Top 10 entry for the cognoscenti, which is hilarious because it's crap."

Iain, its at least going in your favour, that if you inverted your opinions 180 degrees then you would be right. On the other hand, no amount rotation could salvage POLLYWOG. What kind of racist name is that, anyway?

"Soul" is so broad and overused that it struggles to evoke anything now."

no one told chuck d this.