middle class = the not inconsiderable number who've begun to break away from working for a living.
lol whut?
― i am legernd (history mayne), Friday, 3 September 2010 22:37 (thirteen years ago) link
The only way I could see 'median income' not equalling 'middle class' is if it didn't provide some measure of opportunity just based on how much you make. Which may be close to happening, but AFAICT children of parents making $50-60k/year in middle America still have a good shot at going to a public school and grinding away at a miserable job for the rest of their lives in the hopes that THEIR kids can climb another quarter-rung up the class ladder
― a cross between lily allen and fetal alcohol syndrome (milo z), Friday, 3 September 2010 22:37 (thirteen years ago) link
well yeah - i'm trying to figure out where contenderizer is coming from with that six figures comment - like, there is a significant disparity between the cost of living in different regions of the U.S.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 22:37 (thirteen years ago) link
― i am legernd (history mayne), Friday, September 3, 2010 3:37 PM (20 seconds ago)
i lol whutted that earlier - lol! The only reason my middle class parents are beginning to break away from working for a living is because they're a year away from retirement age.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 22:38 (thirteen years ago) link
working class people who are terminally ill can be said to be "breaking away from working for a living" -- these are among our elites, arguably
― goole, Friday, 3 September 2010 22:39 (thirteen years ago) link
haha
― horseshoe, Friday, 3 September 2010 22:40 (thirteen years ago) link
i think there are a lot of rap songs about "breaking away from working for a living" - i don't think the rappers are middle class though
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 22:41 (thirteen years ago) link
think contenderizer may be trying to make middle class mean bourgeois, as in ownership of the means of production... these phrases are all p stupid and very approximate, but no-one else thinks of middle-class as meaning 'earns six figs, doesn't work for a living', and given the necessary intersubjectivity involved in linguistic acts... think contenderizer is off the money.
british class system-wise, jarvis doesn't bring up 'people on benefits' as part of the common people.
― i am legernd (history mayne), Friday, 3 September 2010 22:41 (thirteen years ago) link
lsn peep dis i got more money than alla y'all but y'all don't see me spendin' them ends on somethin phat and swizzy and uploading jpgs of it for everyone to get jealous of rite?
fuk u all and ur class shit.
― spidermark, Friday, 3 September 2010 22:41 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah - i think he's trying to emulate the bourgeois, petit bourgeois, prole taxonomy
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 22:42 (thirteen years ago) link
there is no utility to any of these designations if that doesn't hold
― horseshoe, Friday, September 3, 2010 3:32 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark
sure there is. if you wanna say "making median income", then just say that. we often use "middle class" in political rhetoric to talk about some imaginary "average american", but i think that's a lousy way to conceptualize it. i equate the middle class to marx's petit bourgeois, those who exist alongside the working classes but have begun to assume a quasi-upper-class relationship to personal wealth. business owners and wealthy professionals in marx's eyes, but he was overly attached to the idea of ownership, imo. the owner of a very small business is much more working class than an investment banker making high six figures.
― having taken an actual journalism class (contenderizer), Friday, 3 September 2010 22:43 (thirteen years ago) link
i.e., yes, what i'm doing is exactly what others say - importing marxist taxonomy.
but i'm also trying to insist that far, far more americans are really "working class" than many people think. there are well-to-do working class people and desperately poor working class people, and i'd argue that the vast majority of americans fall into this spectrum somewhere.
― having taken an actual journalism class (contenderizer), Friday, 3 September 2010 22:45 (thirteen years ago) link
This might be a bit flippant but maybe it explains the failure of communication here between US and UK: People in Britain understand class, and class relations, in their guts, the way Americans do race - its the open wound that needs to be kept open if you are to understand how stuff 'really' works. Whereas British people tend to be quite literal and guileless about race, the way Americans are about class.
― sonofstan, Friday, 3 September 2010 22:45 (thirteen years ago) link
― spidermark, Friday, September 3, 2010 3:41 PM (3 minutes ago)
A+++++
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 22:46 (thirteen years ago) link
this confusion occurs cuz in american political rhetoric 'middle class' does usually mean something like median income
― nakhchivan, Friday, 3 September 2010 22:47 (thirteen years ago) link
'the middle class' especially, literally those in the normal income distribution range, no marxist connotations no siree
― nakhchivan, Friday, 3 September 2010 22:48 (thirteen years ago) link
median is just 50th percentile though - someone can be making the median national income in the US but living in NYC or SF and not enjoy the comfortable lifestyle of the middle class
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 22:48 (thirteen years ago) link
if we say regional median, then yeah
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 22:49 (thirteen years ago) link
i think the "middle class" = average american = "YOU, dear voter" rhetorical equation is lame and should be done away with
― having taken an actual journalism class (contenderizer), Friday, 3 September 2010 22:50 (thirteen years ago) link
in America none of us are average, we are all special snowflakes
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 22:51 (thirteen years ago) link
is cntndrzr doing that thing where he makes up new definitions to suit his arg?
― call all destroyer, Friday, 3 September 2010 22:51 (thirteen years ago) link
he's using definitions that aren't the most relevant or appropriate to the discussion, but this one he got from Marx
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 22:52 (thirteen years ago) link
okay, so maybe my terms are weird, but the middle = median = you thing just creates bogus high/low tension between the "lower" & blue-collar "working class" and the white-collar but still working & job-dependent "middle"
― having taken an actual journalism class (contenderizer), Friday, 3 September 2010 22:53 (thirteen years ago) link
proposal
poorworking/middle classrich
― having taken an actual journalism class (contenderizer), Friday, 3 September 2010 22:54 (thirteen years ago) link
nobody disagrees with you about the bogus invocation of "middle class" by American politicians, i don't think
xp
― horseshoe, Friday, 3 September 2010 22:55 (thirteen years ago) link
it's just kind of irritating when working class people perceive themselves as that "middle class" voter and end up voting against their best economic interests because of weird class aspirations, and it's also irritating when people who grew up middle class are in denial about it - either positing that they are higher or lower than what they are.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 22:56 (thirteen years ago) link
I don't think that's a very common problem in america? pretty much everyone who isn't bill gates or homeless claims to be middle class.
― iatee, Friday, 3 September 2010 22:58 (thirteen years ago) link
it's just kind of irritating when working class people perceive themselves as that "middle class" voter and end up voting against their best economic interests because of weird class aspirations
unpack?
cuz i think self-identified "working class" voters tend to vote against their best interests due more to religious pressure than due to class aspirations...
― having taken an actual journalism class (contenderizer), Friday, 3 September 2010 23:00 (thirteen years ago) link
I think a lot of working class people believe that the american federal income tax system overburdens them - but that's partly because we have a country where anyone who has to pay any tax ever believes that they're overtaxed.
― iatee, Friday, 3 September 2010 23:02 (thirteen years ago) link
i think i'm still caught up in this argument i was having with some friends about why California has gone to shit, and how the biggest problem is because of Prop 13 - and working class people voting for it, and the result is that tuition at state colleges - where they used to be able to afford to send their kids to college - is now often out of reach.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 23:03 (thirteen years ago) link
what were they arguing?
― iatee, Friday, 3 September 2010 23:03 (thirteen years ago) link
they just weren't aware of the impact of Prop 13
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 23:04 (thirteen years ago) link
but how as their opposition to prop 13 a product of class aspiration? you mean they just wanted to keep more of their hard-earned so that they might ascend?
― having taken an actual journalism class (contenderizer), Friday, 3 September 2010 23:06 (thirteen years ago) link
home-ownership is an huge part of class aspiration
― iatee, Friday, 3 September 2010 23:06 (thirteen years ago) link
― sonofstan, Friday, 3 September 2010 23:45 (Yesterday)
this is well put, though the affective component can be understood
the essex office worker from a wc background is obviously lower middle class, but unless they become wealthy enough that any pretence of proletarian bona fides is rendered absurd, they and their neighbours will persist w/ saying they're working class
― nakhchivan, Friday, 3 September 2010 23:07 (thirteen years ago) link
but wanting to cut yr property taxes seems more like short-sighted self interest blinding itself to long term consequences - not class aspiration as such
― having taken an actual journalism class (contenderizer), Friday, 3 September 2010 23:07 (thirteen years ago) link
they were in denial about the fact that the cuts to state services - esp. in the form of low tuition at state schools - would have the greatest negative effect on them, as opposed to middle class or upper middle class people, who might struggle a bit to pay, but ultimately can.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 23:08 (thirteen years ago) link
but also what iatee said about home ownership
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 23:09 (thirteen years ago) link
the wealthiest americans are the best at short-sightened self-interest blinding itself to long term consequences - so the lower classes just want to practice by voting for stupid propositions.
― iatee, Friday, 3 September 2010 23:09 (thirteen years ago) link
god Californians vote for stupid propositions - it often makes me embarrassed of where i'm from
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 23:10 (thirteen years ago) link
I think people in most states would be voting for stupid propositions if they had the ability
― iatee, Friday, 3 September 2010 23:11 (thirteen years ago) link
good luck USA!
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 23:12 (thirteen years ago) link
we are no switzerland
― iatee, Friday, 3 September 2010 23:12 (thirteen years ago) link
oh wait switzerland is horrible and racist now too
seriously though, when Minnesota elected Jesse Ventura, it did make me feel less embarrassed about Schwarzenegger - and the whole country voted for Reagan for President
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 23:13 (thirteen years ago) link
http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/X/t/2/protest-youth-in-asia.jpg
― funky brewster (San Te), Friday, 3 September 2010 23:14 (thirteen years ago) link
i get it. you mean they attempted to adopt the blitheness of more wealthy people wr2 the need for well-funded social services, and they did this as a product of their own class aspirations, their sense that they shouldn't have to worry about such things.
makes sense, especially to the extent that conservatives whip up anger among the less well-to-do working classes against the poor (when they actually share a great many interests in common)
― having taken an actual journalism class (contenderizer), Friday, 3 September 2010 23:15 (thirteen years ago) link
ding ding ding!
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 23:16 (thirteen years ago) link
This is the part where I point out that Jesse Ventura was the mayor of a large suburb before running for state office, so the comparison with Arnie isn't quite level.
― maintenant avec plus de fromage (suzy), Friday, 3 September 2010 23:23 (thirteen years ago) link
and a Californian might point out that Jesse was pwned by the Predator and Arnie kicked his ass
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 23:25 (thirteen years ago) link