i got in a big argt once with a friend about drug legalization, my points being basically that making something illegal doesn't erase demand, so the "business model" of suppliers necessarily involves violence; and that our strategy for the past 50-odd years has to be considered a failure, so why not try something else that seems to have worked ok in other places.
the counter-argument was basically "you watch the wire"
― goole, Friday, 27 August 2010 20:53 (4 years ago) Permalink
GBX just asked me to post this link. I actually had it open already in another tab. It's insane:
― o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Friday, 27 August 2010 20:54 (4 years ago) Permalink
In September 2009, 18 patients at a drug rehabilitation clinic called El Aliviane were massacred in a turf battle.
What does this even mean? OOH it makes it sound like the turf battle just happened to take place on the property of the clinic, OTOH "massacre" suggests deliberately killing the patients but doesn't sound like a "turf battle".
― Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 August 2010 20:54 (4 years ago) Permalink
yeah that particular aspect of this is nuts, E.
― ('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 20:55 (4 years ago) Permalink
i have several particularly sharp and otherwise decent friends who indulge in the odd bit of cocaine use, and what can you really say? saying stuff like this comes off as preachy and playing right into the hands of those who want to keep drugs illegal, one could argue. and yet...no.
― ('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 20:56 (4 years ago) Permalink
The situation in Juarez nuts and ridiculous that more attention hasn't been paid to it. I think Jennifer Lopez made a movie about it a couple years ago called "Boderlands" iirc but I don't ever remember seeing it in theaters and suspect it went straight to video.
― o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Friday, 27 August 2010 20:57 (4 years ago) Permalink
what proportion of american drug consumption is "the odd bit of cocaine use" vs. crack addicts, who i don't feel comfortable blaming for any of this
― the girl with the butt tattoo (harbl), Friday, 27 August 2010 20:58 (4 years ago) Permalink
have you read 2666 by roberto bolano? it takes place in a fictional version of juarez and this is one of the main threads the novel focuses on. it's really grim.
― ('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 20:58 (4 years ago) Permalink
How does what's going on now compare to what went on in Colombia/Miami in the 80s? Because I seem to remember that what happened then was the result of a price spike which in turn was the result of an enforcement crackdown.
― Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:00 (4 years ago) Permalink
Omar - I have not but I will do. The whole thing fascinates me because it's just so unbelievable.
― o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:01 (4 years ago) Permalink
This is all worth reading: http://www.theawl.com/author/john-murray
― C0L1N B..., Friday, 27 August 2010 21:03 (4 years ago) Permalink
Last week in Ciudad Juarez, the Federal Police received an emergency call from a payphone explaining that a police officer had been shot and was lying wounded on the Avenue 16 de Septiembre, a street named for the day of Mexican independence from the Spanish. Several federal police officers and an emergency team of paramedics arrived to tend to the injured officer. A TV crew arrived on the scene around the same time. As the officers and doctors gathered around the body to assess the damage, nearby members of the Juarez cartel used a cell phone to detonate a bomb hidden in a parked car at the intersection. The blast killed two Federales, a doctor and an emergency technician, and left 9 other people wounded from shrapnel.
― ('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:06 (4 years ago) Permalink
has anyone read the charles bowden ciudad juarez books? they're on my list, as i've read all of his other books (down by the river is esp. good) but i haven't read them yet. i think he has two?
i've had many (too many to count) students whose lives have been affected by this shit.
― The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:07 (4 years ago) Permalink
No! Amanda can you email me some book recs? Or put them here? I'll get the one you mentioned. I've only read news articles on it but never any full books.
― o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:09 (4 years ago) Permalink
― ('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:58 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
Those 200odd pages of detailed descriptions of murder victims was the most intense thing i've ever read.
Unfortunately I know little-to-nothing about the situation going on, so I don't really know what to say other than f this world
― a hoy hoy, Friday, 27 August 2010 21:09 (4 years ago) Permalink
one woman did an entire semester's worth of speeches about growing up in a town where drug lords bought the bridges, paved the roads, rebuilt the schools, and imposed a strict 9pm curfew on everyone who lived there. violators of the curfew were all shot and killed.
― The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:10 (4 years ago) Permalink
― horseshoe, Friday, 27 August 2010 21:10 (4 years ago) Permalink
gonna go seek that book out, thanks LL
― ('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:11 (4 years ago) Permalink
yeah, it was intense.
not about ciudad juarez, and a little dated, but really well written and interesting
― The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:13 (4 years ago) Permalink
glad this is finally a thread. it's astounding how little public attention this gets.
I felt like the wire could have done this better...haven't seen the episodes recently but I remember the drug-zone experienment worked *so* perfectly, was *so* successful that it was just sorta absurd.
― iatee, Friday, 27 August 2010 21:14 (4 years ago) Permalink
I don't think the death tolls were anywhere in today's range
― iatee, Friday, 27 August 2010 21:17 (4 years ago) Permalink
It all started with something that is by now horrifyingly routine: a YouTube video of the gory execution of a Mexican policeman by a gang of narcotraficantes. Posted on July 22, it begins with the interrogation of the policeman, who was from the northern state of Durango, by masked gangsters employed, in this case, by one of Mexico’s most powerful trafficking groups, the Zetas. Such interrogations have been circulated on the Internet before, and, as here, they often end in death. However, in the course of this particular video the policeman stated that the director of a federal prison in Durango was in the habit of releasing and arming certain prisoners at night, so that they could commit murders aimed, broadly speaking, at the Zetas. The recent massacre of seventeen people attending a birthday party in the neighboring state of Coahuila was the work of these temporarily sprung assassins, the policeman said, as were two other mass killings earlier this year.
― goole, Friday, 27 August 2010 21:17 (4 years ago) Permalink
eh, i think the scenes of hamsterdam at night were p horrific, also there was still murder and death (rip johnny). the open prostitution freaked me out more than the drugs though.
― a hoy hoy, Friday, 27 August 2010 21:17 (4 years ago) Permalink
another student actually taught me about the zetas a few years ago. i had never heard of them, and she was from nuevo laredo, so she grew up around a LOT of drug-fueled violence.
this is a book bowden coauthored with an artist/architect? i would rather read the other one, but would like to see this one
― The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:18 (4 years ago) Permalink
my first experiences with learning about how the drug trade affects people beyond the users and sellers were when i was in colombia (bogota) in 1996, which is also the year that colombia was 'decertified' by the us in their cooperation in the "war on drugs"
what a farce that was
― The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:19 (4 years ago) Permalink
to answer harbl's q, i imagine casual, semi-regular, or recreational cocaine use makes up most of the use in this country, more than the use by addicts? i could be vv wrong. who knows about crack, though...
― ('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:20 (4 years ago) Permalink
This was talked about all the time in the Las Cruces/El Paso area...I forget it's not on everyone else's radar. My brother who lived in Juarez for a couple years says this stuff is "overblown" but I think he was referring to some of the more seemingly hyperbolic ideas that were around like "and they will always make a necklace out of your dried nipples" and not the situation in general. Actually, I should ask what he meant by that at all, he was on a mission at the time & not even allowed to read the news.
― sharkless dick stick (Abbbottt), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:20 (4 years ago) Permalink
gonna go seek that book out, thanks LL― ('_') (omar little), Friday, August 27, 2010 5:11 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
― ('_') (omar little), Friday, August 27, 2010 5:11 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
same - thank you
― o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:22 (4 years ago) Permalink
it is hard to understand how anyone could read any of these stories and think this is 'overblown'. I mean, jeez, imagine if we found 72 bodies somewhere in america.
― iatee, Friday, 27 August 2010 21:23 (4 years ago) Permalink
well it's just like this situation didn't really hit the national news heavy until those people from the embassy were killed
― The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:24 (4 years ago) Permalink
A lot of the violence in the city has been characterized by this kind of symbolism. Bodies have been dumped on many occasions in lots and playgrounds near schools, with children gathering around the crime scene to watch as police bag and remove the dead. Drug rehab clinics have been the scenes of mass murders. People are shot down in broad daylight during the normal hubub of everyday life, on main streets and in restaurants. Considering this, it's clear that what's happening isn't just a war between rival cartels, but a campaign of terror against the local population. The murdered groom's father conveyed perfectly the effect of this kind of violence to the El Paso Times: "I'm confused, frustrated and in despair. My wife, she is devastated." There really aren't any better emotions you could hope to inspire in a population you're trying to control.
A week before Easter, typewritten messages spread around Porvenir that anyone who hadn't left the area by Easter Sunday would be killed. Citizens packed up and left in droves. While no such large scale attack ever came, the assault on the social climate of the community was enough. Residents were threatened with death on the most holy day of the Catholic calendar. Like this week's wedding murders, the sanctuary of religion was directly challenged when the main church in town was burned to the ground on Good Friday.
― ('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:25 (4 years ago) Permalink
― iatee, Friday, August 27, 2010 5:14 PM Bookmark
Wait what? This is not what happened at all.
― Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:26 (4 years ago) Permalink
i was searching for a picture of Renssellaer Lee's White Labyrinth: Cocaine and Political Power, but all I found was this:
Surely things have been written since these books about cocaine and the Andean region in the 80s/90s, but those are the ones I'm most familiar with.
― The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:29 (4 years ago) Permalink
okay I remember it being a grimey area but basically just turning into some nice market economy where people didn't shoot each other
― iatee, Friday, 27 August 2010 21:31 (4 years ago) Permalink
smoke local pot. and leave everything else alone.
^^^this is how I roll. thankfully in the Bay Area local weed is abundant. always thought cocaine was morally indefensible for all kinds of reasons, the trade being one of them.
― I drink your milksteak (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:34 (4 years ago) Permalink
One thing that fascinates me is how the cocaine industry, the heroin industry, and the meth industry are so different from each other. Marijuana is another story because it is a plant and doesn't require the heavy processing or chemical component that the other drugs require in order to be put onto the market. I agree wholeheartedly with Scott and Shakey in the "buy local weed, avoid everything else" philosophy.
No one asked, but Methland is a very readable book about how greedy companies, declining farmtowns, waning industry, and an influx of immigrant workers took its toll on the people (and law enforcement) of one Iowa town.
The writing is VERY annoying at times, but the book's content is interesting.
― The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:38 (4 years ago) Permalink
perhaps i'm incredibly naive but i would like to believe that IRL friends or ilxors i've seen who have bragged about using coke (and other drugs with morally indefensible industries producing them) on other threads might read stuff like this and decide to back off for those reasons.
― ('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:39 (4 years ago) Permalink
yeah, don't do coke, ppl
― goole, Friday, 27 August 2010 21:40 (4 years ago) Permalink
and listen i've seen people i *like* here who have mentioned it, like they do it occasionally, and it kinda breaks my heart y'all.
― ('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:42 (4 years ago) Permalink
i feel more strongly about this than i do about meat, produce, diamonds, sweatshops, pretty much anythingi dumped a bf once for doing coke at a party in front of me and to this day i feel good about itf u dude, knowing what you knowhope you had fun
by nature i am not a tyrant, but this stuff is so violent and pervasive and affects the lives of so many innocent people. it's just super fucked up.
― The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:45 (4 years ago) Permalink
― iatee, Friday, 27 August 2010 21:49 (4 years ago) Permalink
The friends I have who are most likely to use cocaine also seem most likely to be amoral about these kinds of things.
― Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:49 (4 years ago) Permalink
funny how that works
― I drink your milksteak (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:51 (4 years ago) Permalink
there's no complexity here, like it's not 'should I boycott israeli companies because I think the government is evil?' - I mean you are literally funneling money to mass murderers
― iatee, Friday, 27 August 2010 21:51 (4 years ago) Permalink
Exactly, you are directly paying terrible people to kill other people so that they can bring you the very thing for which you are paying.
― Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:52 (4 years ago) Permalink
this "hand-wringing" may elicit some eye-rolls but w/e
― ('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:55 (4 years ago) Permalink
"Hi, I'd like a large pizza with anchovies, pepperoni, mushrooms, and please brutally kill any other pizza deliverymen you see, and their families, along the way"
― Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:56 (4 years ago) Permalink
"Well don't get all MORALISTIC with me!"
― Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:57 (4 years ago) Permalink
i have a lot of sympathy for addicts too, i get it, i just wish people would know how far the tentacles of the product they're buying/selling reach. it always goes further than most people think.
― The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 27 August 2010 22:06 (4 years ago) Permalink
Defend the Indefensible: Cocaine
― I drink your milksteak (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 August 2010 22:18 (4 years ago) Permalink
― LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Thursday, 23 October 2014 21:05 (1 month ago) Permalink
The mayor of Iguala has been charged with six murders connected to the student protests.
He can probably expect another forty three to be added to that at some point. The theory is that he feared students would try to disrupt an event promoting his wife's political career so he colluded with the police and one of the cartels to have them kidnapped and killed. She has strong ties to the Beltran Levya group and appears to have been running her own gang in the city.
― Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Sunday, 16 November 2014 11:57 (1 week ago) Permalink
At least 60,000 people have died since Calderón had taken office in 2006, and around 22,000 are presumed missing. The government stopped releasing figures in 2011 and put a 30-year lock on them, meaning that we’d never really be sure what the toll was.
― never say goodbye before leaving chat room (Crabbits), Sunday, 23 November 2014 18:45 (5 days ago) Permalink
From Al-Jazeera US: Mexican drug cartels are worse than ISIL: Western obsession with the Islamic State is fueled more by bigotry than any genuine assessment of risk or atrocities
― never say goodbye before leaving chat room (Crabbits), Sunday, 23 November 2014 18:49 (5 days ago) Permalink
i watched the 48 hrs on this dude, p interesting
conditions cant be that bad, hes reading david foster wallace
― johnny crunch, Thursday, 27 November 2014 23:36 (Yesterday) Permalink
id say his case should be the next serial but seems like mexican authorities destroyed most evidence altogether
― johnny crunch, Thursday, 27 November 2014 23:41 (Yesterday) Permalink