"One of the surest tests [of the superiority or inferiority of a poet] is the way in which a poet borrows. Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different."And in practically every case, the original was superior than the uncredited LZ remake. I mean, Howlin' Wolf and Muddy Waters, etc, eat those boys for breakfast.
― Jazzbo, Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:03 (2 years ago) Permalink
TS Eliot was a dick fwiw
― acoleuthic, Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:03 (2 years ago) Permalink
god the electric blues is so fucking boring
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:04 (2 years ago) Permalink
led zep basically made it tolerable
The point of the thread is the egregiousness of their plagiarism. Obviously lots of people like the plagiarized songs, theyve sold a trillion records. I happen not to like them, which puts me in a minority, I guess. The fact that many people think they are "good" doesnt mean they werent ripped off. Which Zep acknowledged after guys like Willie Dixon sued their ass.
― Sabbath to Ulver: "Suck It" (Bill Magill), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:05 (2 years ago) Permalink
besides I mean using this same slippery slope are we gonna say people who don't write their own songs suck too?
well first off, that's not a slippery slope at all because the issue here is the dishonesty in taking other people's material; artists who perform other people's songs are crediting the songwriters and any money they make gets split with the people who wrote the song
signed, a classical singer
― Trouble-Making Foods (HI DERE), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:05 (2 years ago) Permalink
Actually, Bill, that quote swings both ways. I like Zep fair enough and I like Howlin' Wolf but I think it's a little late to engage in the polemic about white Englishmen ripping off black American artists. They did, were successful at it, alas, and made some good music at times, even. Imso, 'tis better at this point to encourage people to buy the originals than to disparage their love of Zep or the Stones or whatever.
― Un peu d'Eire, ça fait toujours Dublin (Michael White), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:05 (2 years ago) Permalink
the point is, does plagiarism matter? is it worth getting worked up about?
― margana (anagram), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:06 (2 years ago) Permalink
um.... YES
― Trouble-Making Foods (HI DERE), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:06 (2 years ago) Permalink
I mean talk about stupid questions
― Trouble-Making Foods (HI DERE), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:07 (2 years ago) Permalink
led zep basically made it tolerableNo, they watered it down, took all the drama out of it and made it shit.
― Jazzbo, Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:07 (2 years ago) Permalink
not a stupid question imo
xp
― margana (anagram), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:08 (2 years ago) Permalink
Then you are stupid. Plagarism sucks.
― Trouble-Making Foods (HI DERE), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:08 (2 years ago) Permalink
the plagiarism definitely matters, it's just that like the revelation that this occurred was old even by 1990.
― michangelo wuz a party d00d (San Te), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:09 (2 years ago) Permalink
Actually, and I am merely quoting the master, the best way to resolve this dispute is surely champagne and reefer.
― Un peu d'Eire, ça fait toujours Dublin (Michael White), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:10 (2 years ago) Permalink
there was one debate I read somewhere (newsgroups???) that theorized that Led Zeppelin were subscribing to the old accepted notion amongst blues guitarists that blues was a 'shared' communal music so that ideas could be used collectively and 'borrowed', per se.
Although as one of the respondents correctly pointed out, that doesn't really apply when you're a major recording artist on a major label, rather than being an unsigned blues guitarist gigging at clubs.
― michangelo wuz a party d00d (San Te), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:11 (2 years ago) Permalink
Guitar Magazine also did a fairly nice breakdown of Zep's plagiarism in an issue around 1995-1997, although they focused more on one to two specific songs ("Lemon Song" was one).
― michangelo wuz a party d00d (San Te), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:12 (2 years ago) Permalink
I'd like to know how many albums Zeppelin sold last year. I bet it's a significant one. The plagiarism issue is still a valid one, though maybe alleviated a little bit by the fact the writers of the songs are getting a cut. Except for the poor Dazed and Confused guy. And Page did a flat out note for note rip of that song, if I remember correctly.
― Sabbath to Ulver: "Suck It" (Bill Magill), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:12 (2 years ago) Permalink
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/Manet%2C_Edouard_-_Olympia%2C_1863.jpg/300px-Manet%2C_Edouard_-_Olympia%2C_1863.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Tizian_102.jpg/250px-Tizian_102.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Venus_dormida.jpg/250px-Venus_dormida.jpg
― Un peu d'Eire, ça fait toujours Dublin (Michael White), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:13 (2 years ago) Permalink
"Actually, and I am merely quoting the master, the best way to resolve this dispute is surely champagne and reefer."
Certainly works for me.
― Sabbath to Ulver: "Suck It" (Bill Magill), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:13 (2 years ago) Permalink
plagiarism or not, I can't trick my ears into not liking what I hear when "Dazed and Confused" comes on. there's no contradiction in finding the act itself deplorable while still "liking" the music
― michangelo wuz a party d00d (San Te), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:14 (2 years ago) Permalink
loosy goosy, violin bow wielding sloppy guitar playing
LOL you know what the blues really needs to make it exciting is rigid, perfectly exercised technique.
― a mix of music (Lionel Ritchie) and kicks (my tongue) (Phil D.), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:14 (2 years ago) Permalink
many xps yeah that's what drives me crazy--it's not that plagiarism "doesn't matter," it's that everyone knows this and knew it 20 years ago, the impacted parties are all dead, and yet the opening post of this thread is like some smoking gun shit that is suddenly supposed to do....what? how is this information supposed to impact me?
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:15 (2 years ago) Permalink
the solo in "Rock 'n roll" is so sloppy that I gave up trying to learn it cuz I can't make out half of it. but uhm are we really talking about sloppiness as a detractor in blues-based rock 'n roll, cuz if so there's a lot of bands that will need to snap their guitar cases shut.
― michangelo wuz a party d00d (San Te), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:15 (2 years ago) Permalink
Q: Are the second and third in this series of pictures "deplorable"?
(Neither credits Goya)
― Hadrian VIII, Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:17 (2 years ago) Permalink
hey guyz do you think HEre Comes the Hotstepper is a ripoff of Come Together
― michangelo wuz a party d00d (San Te), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:18 (2 years ago) Permalink
xxp well I didn't know all this, I find the debate mildly diverting and it's good that it has its own thread on ilm. so this information 'impacts' me for sure.
― margana (anagram), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:18 (2 years ago) Permalink
glad 4 u
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:19 (2 years ago) Permalink
hey I was just about to post those paintings! first one is Velazquez though not Goya.
― margana (anagram), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:20 (2 years ago) Permalink
that would be extra deplorable if they had credited goya then
― Hadrian VIII, Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:22 (2 years ago) Permalink
Big payout
― Hadrian VIII, Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:23 (2 years ago) Permalink
well I guess it's only a matter of time before the sister "The Quentin Tarantino Plagiarism Compendium" thread gets started on ILE.
― michangelo wuz a party d00d (San Te), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:23 (2 years ago) Permalink
altho that one is fairly more engaging because it's ongoing as he's still making movies
― michangelo wuz a party d00d (San Te), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:24 (2 years ago) Permalink
My problem with Zeppelin (besides Robert Plant’s voice) is not so much that they borrowed or stole songs, but that they didn’t even bother to acknowledge those artists who helped shape their sound. The Rolling Stones once refused to appear on a TV show unless Howlin’ Wolf was given a spot, too. In the folk or blues tradition, it’s quite common to “borrow” themes, melodies, etc. — Dylan’s been doing it his whole career. But the guy has always trumpeted his admiration for those who influenced him, naming names in countless interviews for nearly 50 years now. He helped bring a lot of his musical heroes to the public eye and, yes, increase their record sales (whether they actually saw a dime of the profits or not).LZ basically said: “This is our song. Fuck you.”
― Jazzbo, Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:24 (2 years ago) Permalink
hey, and you guys don't have Morbs to deal with in this thread!
xpost
― Gucci Mane hermeneuticist (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:25 (2 years ago) Permalink
I love Robert Plant's voice. also I don't think anybody here is saying "plagiarism is a-ok".
― michangelo wuz a party d00d (San Te), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:30 (2 years ago) Permalink
except for anagram
― michangelo wuz a party d00d (San Te), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:31 (2 years ago) Permalink
well I dunno if I would say it was a-ok. and I'm no Led Zep fan. but in general the knowledge that some riff or lyric or something is ripped off is not enough to spoil my enjoyment of it.
― margana (anagram), Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:35 (2 years ago) Permalink
Hey, I think they were an awesome-sounding group (again, except for Plant, whose shrieking is more painful to my ears than nails on a chalkboard). But they managed to distinguish themselves as being even bigger twats than nearly every other multiplatinum-selling band. That takes some doing.
― Jazzbo, Thursday, 19 August 2010 14:44 (2 years ago) Permalink
Led Zeppelin is just ripped off blues, in fact their music is exactly the same as Blind Willie Johnson. In fact if people weren't so racist you could have put Blind Willie Johnson in front of an arena and it would have had the same effect on the audience as Led Zeppelin because Led Zeppelin did not actually bring anything to the music.
― Theodore "Thee Diddy" Roosevelt (Hurting 2), Thursday, 19 August 2010 15:01 (2 years ago) Permalink
The Bob Dylan Plagiarism Compendium
The Pablo Picasso Plagiarism Compendium
― Hadrian VIII, Thursday, August 19, 2010 12:22 AM Bookmark
The Robert Johnson Plagiarism Compendium
The Miles Davis Plagiarism Compendium
etc
― Theodore "Thee Diddy" Roosevelt (Hurting 2), Thursday, 19 August 2010 15:03 (2 years ago) Permalink
The Stones ones are different though - those aren't ripping off existing songs, it's ripping off the guys who were playing with them.
this is a boring argument/thread in general but I would just like to point out that this is historically inaccurate (see: Staple Singers, tons of others)
― glitter hands! glitter hands! razzle! dazzle! (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 19 August 2010 15:34 (2 years ago) Permalink
but that they didn’t even bother to acknowledge those artists who helped shape their sound.
I don't think this is true at all either fwiw
Page namechecks the author of In My Time of Dying from the stage in How the West Was Won iirc
― glitter hands! glitter hands! razzle! dazzle! (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 19 August 2010 15:35 (2 years ago) Permalink
this is a boring argument/thread in general....
^ then why did you click on it?
― Sabbath to Ulver: "Suck It" (Bill Magill), Thursday, 19 August 2010 16:09 (2 years ago) Permalink
I didn't think Moka's post was argumentative or critical - it is interesting to pore over Zep's sources (as I enjoyed doing with this comp: http://www.discogs.com/Various-The-Roots-Of-Led-Zeppelin/release/519398). But when it turned into: RIPOFF ARTISTS! J'ACCUSE then it got bad.
sorry Bill
― glitter hands! glitter hands! razzle! dazzle! (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 19 August 2010 16:10 (2 years ago) Permalink
I said this on some other thread but one of the things that I think gets overstated is that while Zep borrowed/stole liberally (I don't think there's anything at all wrong with this, fwiw) they're stuff rarely actually SOUNDS like the original. the production/arrangement/performance of material was a central aspect of Zeppelin, and claiming that, for example, they're version of Nobody's Fault But Mine bears anything more than a passing resemblance to Bukka's stripped-down, lo-fi original is just ridiculous.
― glitter hands! glitter hands! razzle! dazzle! (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 19 August 2010 16:14 (2 years ago) Permalink
Yeah, that.
― Theodore "Thee Diddy" Roosevelt (Hurting 2), Thursday, 19 August 2010 16:17 (2 years ago) Permalink
^^^^^^^
― Hadrian VIII, Thursday, 19 August 2010 16:43 (2 years ago) Permalink
Totally disagree. I like how you picked that one and not a complete and utter ripoff like Dazed and Confused. And Ive never heard Bukka White's version, but a steal is a steal.
― Sabbath to Ulver: "Suck It" (Bill Magill), Thursday, 19 August 2010 16:45 (2 years ago) Permalink
I dunno I think that's similar to crediting Chuck Britz for all the weird stuff on the BB's records, or Geoff Emerick for the Beatles
― bring me your finest milksteak and a side of jellybeans (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 24 August 2010 23:48 (2 years ago) Permalink
doesn't eddie kramer deserve most/all of the credit for the actual engineering on zep records?
No.
― Veðrafjǫrðr heimamaður (ecuador_with_a_c), Wednesday, 25 August 2010 09:14 (2 years ago) Permalink
Specifically, Page swapped engineers around so people like you wouldn't say things like that (about the engineers I mean, not Kramer in particular). I mean, they seemed to manage alright without him on IV.
― Veðrafjǫrðr heimamaður (ecuador_with_a_c), Wednesday, 25 August 2010 09:18 (2 years ago) Permalink
"I consciously kept changing engineers because I didn't want people to think that they were responsible for our sound. I wanted people to know it was me."
― Veðrafjǫrðr heimamaður (ecuador_with_a_c), Wednesday, 25 August 2010 09:20 (2 years ago) Permalink
Sounds like a peach of a guy.
― Zeppelin to Howlin Wolf: "Suck It" (Bill Magill), Wednesday, 25 August 2010 13:12 (2 years ago) Permalink
If he gave all his money to earthquake victims, you'd suspect it was a tax avoidance scheme. We get it, you hate Zeppelin, etc.
― My totem animal is a hamburger. (WmC), Wednesday, 25 August 2010 13:20 (2 years ago) Permalink
Well, I saw some recent interviews. RobPlant seemed like a nice guy. Page did not.
― Mark G, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 14:38 (2 years ago) Permalink
Task Brasil was given an enormous boost in 1997 with a very generous donation by Jimmy Page, the Led Zeppelin rock icon, who witnessed first hand the deprivation of the children and troubles in the favelas whilst playing in Rio de Janeiro. The money donated was used to buy a plot of land in Santa Teresa on which ‘Casa Jimmy’ was built to provide a safe and happy home for a lucky few of the abandoned children.
Showoff! Carpetbagger!
http://www.taskbrasil.org.uk/
― Hadrian VIII, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 16:13 (2 years ago) Permalink
Page made those kids poor in the first place dontchaknow. also I think he killed their parents.
― bring me your finest milksteak and a side of jellybeans (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 25 August 2010 16:26 (2 years ago) Permalink
for a 'lucky few'. WHAT ABOUT EVERYONE ELSE JIMMY?????
also jimmy has yet to deny the rumors that he killed 100,000 people in East Timor. IF YOU'RE INNOCENT WHY AINTCHOO TALKIN ABOUT IT
― funky brewster (San Te), Wednesday, 25 August 2010 17:41 (2 years ago) Permalink
Before recording Presence in 1976 Jimmy Page massacred thousands in the Laotian foothills and FAILED TO CREDIT POL POT.
― Hadrian VIII, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 17:49 (2 years ago) Permalink
lol
― funky brewster (San Te), Wednesday, 25 August 2010 17:50 (2 years ago) Permalink
Those aren't pearl inlays in his fretboard, they're teeth.
― My totem animal is a hamburger. (WmC), Wednesday, 25 August 2010 17:54 (2 years ago) Permalink
"The Rain Song" totally ripped off George Harrison's "Something" - the two-chord intro is identical. But the compendium didn't mention it because Harrison himself stole it from the Chiffons.
― Myonga Vön Bontee, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 17:56 (2 years ago) Permalink
Todd Rundgren also once accused George Harrison of stealing his production credits on some album (don't remember which one, the quote was in Guitar mgazine though)
― funky brewster (San Te), Wednesday, 25 August 2010 17:57 (2 years ago) Permalink
(xp) and the chiffons totally ripped off jake holmes.
― fact checking cuz, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 17:58 (2 years ago) Permalink
Steered clear of this thread for a while but it was worth clicking on to read about "The Weight."
I've always maintained that Page is a lot more interesting as a producer than he is as a guitarist.
― build my challops high (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 25 August 2010 18:01 (2 years ago) Permalink
Must've been one of the Badfinger records.
― a mix of music (Lionel Ritchie) and kicks (my tongue) (Phil D.), Wednesday, 25 August 2010 18:06 (2 years ago) Permalink
ahh yes that's who it was
― funky brewster (San Te), Wednesday, 25 August 2010 18:07 (2 years ago) Permalink
xposts - And Jake Holmes' "No Time Or Space" was totally ripped off without credit by Bernie Krause before Harrison ever had a chance to rip it off the uncredited Krause without credit
― Myonga Vön Bontee, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 18:31 (2 years ago) Permalink
Still, you have to give him credit.
― Mark G, Thursday, 26 August 2010 14:40 (2 years ago) Permalink
ZEPPELIN RULES!
― sport (crüt), Saturday, 28 August 2010 20:42 (2 years ago) Permalink