Hip Hop taken to new levels.

He's very proud of his 'provocations' and has said so before, and then complains when he gets trashed. For my part, that's not very comprehensible, except in an extremely negative way.

I first got into hip-hop, or should i say hip-hop style beats via Meat Beat Manifesto, a band mostly considered "industrial", mainly because Wax Trax! was their US label for a small while when i discovered them. However, at the time, lower tempo breaks was a big part of their sound, and the way they laid it down just did it for me... anyway, without them I wouldn't have bothered trying out some of the hip-hop that was coming out at the time... (circa 1989, 1990, etc.),and frankly i wouldn't have gotten into hip-hop has much as I ever expected.

But being the college radio dork I was, I was always arguing with fellow DJs about things like "When is Hip Hop going to do 5/4 beats or start doing things to REALLY mix shit up like Meat Beat was back in 1989? Add some loud white noise.. or sample obscure Indian soundtracks or starting reversing the raps, or have asynchronous rapping, etc." Obviously, that's a rather embarrassing statement in retrospect, although a few of them have come true, sort of.

But the point is, these things "weren't happening" in hip-hop for me because i was just an eager college radio DJ really excited about various music styles, and just dreamed that someone out there would answer my prayers and perform the lab experiments i didn't have the resources or talent to do myself.

The reality is.. music gets, ahem, "taken to the next level" when no one's looking, and it's usually in a direction that no one, even eager fucking dorks like me, never expect. Gary Numan has much influence on early hip-hop as, say, Public Enemy has had on a lot of current rock music (for better or worse). I doubt any saw that. I doubt anyone could have forseen Timbaland.

So, it's NOT a bad idea to have dreams on how one would want to change a genre they like! And i hope no one is beating up on James for suggesting.. (though I can understand the wording was a little suspicious).

Things are being "held back" because people still like it the way it is, and it's selling. Until people get bored, then "the next level" may or may not happen.

How the fuck do *I*, DONUT FUCKING BITCH, get to become the next Timbaland? Where did he come from, anyway? An alien race of peg leg pirates?

I feel this post shouldn't be lost among Nihilist's other posts in this thread.

fwiw-- I also agree with the one post way up at the top, on how some of those "progressive" elements James mentioned are contrary to what Hip-hop is fundamentally about. I'm not saying those are bad ideas or that experimentation in hip-hop shouldn't happen/isn't possible, blah, blah, blah. Just that there is a reason why Schoenberg/James Joyce isn't a larger influence on Hip-hop. At a certain point it wouldn't be recognizable as hip-hop. The emphasis on Rhyming/Back Beat/Samples etc, etc, that was also mentioned up top, would be dashed.

He's very proud of his 'provocations' and has said so before, and then complains when he gets trashed

So I deserve this bullying because my opinion is stated in a provocative way? Interesting.
Rather than arguing the points I make, personal attacks and e-stalking is a lot better. Comparisons to other board members who are apparently held in disfavor, also very mature.

Man, this place is fucking cliquish. God forbid I disagree with the mighty AllMusic Guide reviewer. Congratulations on yr efame. I hope it makes you lots of efriends that you can ebully and estalk me with.

Why? Do you have to listen to LIttle Richard and Chuck Berry before wanting to hear stuff that suits your personal tastes better?

I don't really want to get started in this argument again, but my response to this would be that most people who become serious rock music fans start out - aside from childhood flirtations with pop - with "classic" rock, some sort of starting point in the rock genre from which they place their values - what aesthetics they value in music, and that this perspective is expanded over time. I'm not insisting that everyone listen to Kurtis Blow in order to "get" hip hop - and this is how I think Ned originally misunderstood me - but that everyone should understand - or try to understand - fully the hip hop AESTHETIC and value system before they can truly evaluate an artist.
Ned took exception to my assumption that he had not done this, which I presumed from looking at his 'favorite albums' list. I can understand why he would be upset to a certain extent, because I AM presuming this knowledge without knowing his listening experience, but I was arguing that the list spoke for itself - it wasn't HIM that I was dissing, but the perspective that the list displayed, a value system that I would argue lacks perspective. He then followed that by saying that I lack the same perspective; i agreed. We ended on a sour note. Or something along those lines.

Please ignore this post if it insights the fire in your belly.

Damn skippy.

can you give us a precis? or a few pointers? describe what it is from your pov? or is this gonna stay at some meta level?

I am afraid I am leaving myself dangling here so I'm going to explain what I mean a little better: The assumption is often that "whitening" of the music is inherently "progressive," and I was suggesting that this is not so. Note that whitening does not neccessarily have to do with the skin color of the musician - for instance, Dave Matthews Band minus Dave Matthews recording a hip hop album would still be creating a hip hop album with a rock aesthetic and therefore it would be REgressive rather than PROgressive. So "whitening" in the case in which I am using it refers to the values inherent in the musicians' musical ideas. White CULTURE rather than white PEOPLE.

can you give us a precis? or a few pointers? describe what it is from your pov? or is this gonna stay at some meta level?

While my musical values come from a more hip hopist perspective simply because that is what I surrounded myself with as a kid, and then growing up, (jazz also), perhaps I have a different perspective than a lot of people here. I don't want to act like I'm some hip hop scholar or something though here to educate the masses, because I'm not at all. Forreal, the best way to do it is explore it yrself, read about the artists, etc. Even if you don't listen to ALL the artists from the early 80s, understanding WHY the music was created - for example, that hip hop is based on deconstruction and reconstruction of older song forms, repetition, percussive drive, James Brown style drumming, the fact that it was initially made as dance music...all stuff that is important to know....a "hip hopist" would say that a rapper using a live band is NOT "real hip hop"; I disagree. But I think a lot of the time rock critics would use use of rock instrumentation or values as a "maturation" of hip hop - (thus the vaunted position of the Roots on critics polls) rather than seeing sample-based music as its own legitimate musical aesthetic.

"The assumption"? from whom?

James.
You are asking for whiter hip hop.
Admit it.

I think hip hop has been asking for whiter hip hop since it was born. I love that footage of Afrika Bambaata raving about Gary Numan and him DJing it back in the day. Kraftwerk anyone?

(You know, white guys like Numan and Hutter And Schneider who use "instruments")

Different from the race of the artist. Bambaataa created music in the hip hop aesthetic, which of course overlaps rock music in a good 50% of its values.

Know what's a great song?

PS: Seriously, check out World Destruction.
R-R-R-Reagan.

Ah, so "white-ification" = "long instrumental solos"... like Jimi Hendrix, or almost all of jazz.

This whole over-analyzing and adjective-laden term assignment about the AESTHETIC of hip hop is just really boggling. I'm very eager about the history of hip-hop, as it is VERY fascinating, but discussing this any further at this point is like arguing over what "punk" means, as opposed to just talking about the "roots" of punk or whatever.

Although I hope we never have a Paul Simon/ Peter Gabriel of hip hop.

Though it's funny that ddrake considers this track "bridging" the hip-hop aesthetic, as I thought it was just Bill Laswell wanking over large glam rock beats with two guys shouting awkwardly over it.