Why Do (some) Men Hate Women?

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So, what, is there NO FUCKING MIDDLE GROUND between getting laid NONSTOP and getting laid NEVER? People want to accuse me of seeing the world in "easy terms"...I'm the absolute last person who needs to have "explained" to me that having a lot sex is/can be an expression of hatred, anger or control.

I still hold fast that get the people I specifically referenced a date (i.e. misogynistic internet saddos), and they'd knock it off significantly. There is a great big huge gray area between virgins and whores.

― Ally, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Tarden, of course women want their weaknesses excused. So do men. And on the same physiological grounds e.g. men claiming it is natural and hormone-driven to want to sow their seed far and wide and using that as an excuse for infidelity. I would say that infidelity is a worse crime than maybe staying home from work occasionally because you are having labour-style period cramps.

― Emma, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

If Ally's theory were true, no woman would only ever mate with an inept woman-hater. The most virulent misogynists I know are nearly all married.

― Patrick, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I think I agree with what Tom E said in his opening post above. Possibly I know some men who hate some women, some men who hate some men, and vice versa, and on and on. (But 'hate' is a strong word, like Tom E said.) But like Tom E, I don't think I know anyone who hates all women, or even all men. I think we should, possibly, avoid focusing on what (in sex / gender terms) divides us. I could be wrong about that, though, and even if I'm not wrong I could probably get misinterpreted.

― the pinefox, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

"...no woman would ever"... that "only" has no business there.

― Patrick, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

The problem with generalisations isnt their truth-value which might be high but their use-value which is nil, i.e. in "the trenches" it is not an ur-Man talking to an ur-Woman but eg Paul talking to Kate. So whether a generalisation about 'men' might be right it can't make a situation any better (and can easily make it worse). So Mark above counters the idea that men are unromantic committmentphobes w/ the idea that they aren't and people are getting pushed into behaving otherwise. But if they 'aren't' then what about the ones who actually *are* (eg me in some ways).

― Tom, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

CAN I POINT OUT THAT THE ONLY MYSOGYNISTS I KNOW ARE INTERNET SADDOS ONCE AGAIN?

I can start naming names, if you like, in an ILM stylee, but that would be rude and inappropriate. The thing is, every single one I knew immediately became less negative once they actually went out and got some play. We aren't talking wife-beaters here or something, because it's something I know very little about, having been too young to witness a family member go thru it, and running out of the situation myself ASAP. I'm certain there are plenty of men who have loads and loads of sex who do it because they want to control women. But that's not my experience, and I have a hard time believing that I'm the only person who sees the big huge area between not having sex -> having a lot of sex with many people.

― Ally, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

That's of course the problem with topics like this, Tom. You try to take your experience and then generalize, but then you have to be careful to point out that it's a generalization, and then someone skips over that disclaimer and gets bitchy, yadda yadda yadda.

Quite frankly, I think all men are on some level misogynists, and I think all women are on some level men haters. Discuss.

― Ally, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

No, I think IT'S ALL GOOD.

― Nick, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Actually I didn't particular mean to stress "lots" vs "none": what I meant was "type one is getting" vs "type one fears the world assumes everyone *ought* to be getting, for its and their welfare..." (or something).

― mark s, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Ally - my apologies. I had seen your disclaimer and thought it meant something else entirely (i.e. "I'll say this online because in person men just can't take it".).

― Patrick, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I don't agree Ally. I'm male, and on no level a misgynist. I know plenty of women who don't despise all men in any way, too.

― Paul Strange, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I tend to be somewhat wary of men. I don't know if this makes me a self-hating gender traitor or just sensible. I mean most men are awful. So are a lot of women, but they're not quite so intimidating and/or boring, on the whole. I haven't done very careful stats on this. I ought to check my facts before I settle into this prejudice too deeply.

― Nick, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Reductive view from a social-phobic misanthrope - men are alternately boring and threatening, while women are alternately stupid and devious

― tarden, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Agreeing with Nick, by the way, not 'mocking'

― tarden, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I find men far more interesting than *most* women. But maybe that's cause I hang out with girly-men like Paul and his ilk. I do still hate men, so I can't prove Ally wrong, but I just hate them less than most women.

(Please bear in mind, I said *most* women. Two or three of my bestest friends in the world are women, albeit sensible, non-girly women, not lipstick-wearing, handbag-oogling, shrieking Bridget Jones types...)

― masonic boom, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Kate, I take umbrage at this. I consider myself to be girlie (in some ways), I wear lipstick and have been known to become enthusiastic about handbags on occasion. However I am not a shrieking 'Bridget Jones type'. Most of my friends are blokes and I have best friends who ar both male and female. The male friends accuse me of being a geezer bird (yuck yuck yuck) which they consider to be a compliment and I try to take as such. The point, if there is one, being that most people have masculine/feminine aspects to them so to hate either gender is fairly self defeating.

― Emma, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Many reasons men dislike women. It depends on the case and there not much grounds for generalisation I feel. Diferent combinations of events to influence attitude. I know its a BORING answer but I feel its the best . Let my now provide entertainment to make up for the dull answer PEANUT BUTTER FIREY SEX MONKEY THONG ARR!!!

― Mike Hanle y, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Emma, I'm an equal opportunity misanthrope. I hate *all* people equally, regardless of gender.

I have no patience for people who bang on about lipstick or handbags. I'm sure you would have no patience for me if I started banging on about varying brands of Russian effects pedals, or vaccuume tube based amplification. It's a question of commonality of interests. If you take umbrage at being called a BJ type because you like lippie and handbags, then I apologise for calling you such.

But I still hate *most* women. No, scratch that. I'm a misanthrope, I hate *all* women, and all men, too.

― masonic boom, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Hope you don't hate me... Maybe I'm neither male nor female, but neuter...

― Paul Girly-Boy, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Even me? And what about she-he s?

― Mike Hanle y, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I think if a)men stopped pretending they were interested in 'fatherhood', and b)women stopped trying to MAKE them interested, everything would be a lot better

― tarden, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

The thing is, Kate, I wear lippie and have a handbag but do not (outside this board) 'bang on' about either, I mean I don't sit in the pub pouting at people and saying 'does this lippie suit me? does it make me look fat?' or whatever. I think the preoccupation with weight which is evident mostly among women - you and me included - on other boards is far more 'Bridget Jonesy'. Don't you think?

― Emma, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

OK, maybe "Briget Jonesy" is a hard term for me to defend the use of, considering I read the book once, about 4 years ago, and got so cross at it that I threw it across the room when I was done with it.

I don't like girly girls. I am not going to defend that statement. I just *never* seem to get along with them, no matter how much we have in common otherwise, they just irritate me.

Preoccupation with weight and the cult of the girly-girl... if it occupies your mind and soul to the point where you cannot even enjoy some of the basic pleasures of life, like Bouze and Chocolate, then screw it, yes, that means girly-girl. To not worry about it is almost impossible in this day and age and culture of thin-worship (yes, I'm aware of the irony of that statement, given my opinions on the skinny guy thread). Do I think about it more than about once a day, when I'm trying to get my jeans on over my hips? Nah, or I wouldn't be fat in the first place.

Girly girls are... I don't even know how to make a categorisation, because there's an exception to every rule. Generally, obessed with their appearance (often to the exclusion of very basic fun... "I can't eat cause I'm on a diet... I can't run cause I'm wearing stupid shoes"). Obsessed with boys, more with *catching* a boy, because she feels incomplete without one, as opposed to objectification of boys according to appearance or anything else. Obsessed with uber-feminine topics... babies, flowers, interior decorating.

All these things are generalisations, yes, but they're just examples of the sort of people that I do *NOT* get along with. I don't know if I'd get along with you, Emma, I haven't met you. From your online personna, I'd *guess* that you're not terrifically girly-girl according to the preconceptions and prejudices described above.

And for the record, I'm not insulting anyone, or having a go at anyone (see the whole "office people" misunderstanding, which was patently stupid, considering I was *working* in an office at the time) I am just stating MY PERSONAL BIAS about people I do and don't get along with.

End Of Rant.

My god, if this keeps up, I might just make it to the bottom of the stats cock by the end of the week!

― Kate the Saint, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Kate saying she's fat and ugly = a) bull, b) Bridget Jonesism.

― Patrick, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I take your points Kate and I am not really personally offended, specially as you are as you say a general misanthrope! I think you are right in saying there are exceptions to every rule and having preconceptions means you don't get to know the exceptions.

I am scared of Saturday now in case I am wearing difficult-to-run-in shoes and you decide to beat me up.......

― Emma, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

No, it's not A) because it is a statement of fact. Currently up to a size 36 in jeans, which is 2 sizes larger than the proper size for my height. And it's not B) because if it was, it would be something I obsess about constantly, writing my weight in my diary every day (when I don't even own a scale) and doing something about, instead of merely shrugging and reaching for another slice of pizza.

― Kate the Saint, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Tarden, I'm *very* interested in fatherhood. It's my most URGENT and KEY ambition. I think you're way off the mark there.

― Nick, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Knee jerk bitterness from either gender is utterly useless. One particular thing simply I don't understand tho, is how any man can feel valid to complain about how his feelings are 'repressed' in this society when it's evolved as such because it's a *patriarchy*. Other men have enforced that particular standard - so why be bitter about the fact that it doesn't apply to women or 'effeminate' men? So much resentment gets misdirected, when often it's our OWN gender that's doing the most damage - it's as if we're in total denial. Women do it too, of course. Like the trophy wife that engineered herself into the position on purpose because that's where she saw herself as most valuable. Fuck her, and you can bet I'm going to blame her for 'selling out' probably more than I'm going to bitch about some shallow bastard thinking he should be able to buy a nice peice of T&A to put on permanent display (or at least until she hits 35 - more proof of her stupidity). More men ought to be doing the same thing re: other men acting like Neandertals.

― Kim, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

OK, then, Emma. In case I decide to beat you up, I'll give you a good head start to account for my being in trainers. ;-)

Besides, I think I'll be far too busy watching the DG/Mark S deathmatch to worry about beating anyone else up!

― Kate the Saint, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Kim - I think the 'bitterness' comes from the perception that there used to be some Golden Age where at least the men got some COMPENSATION for being repressed, i.e. 'getting' to treat everybody else like chattel.

― tarden, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Yeah Kim. get with it.

― Mike Hanle y, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Kate - Well, my definition of "fat" may be a little more let-it-all- hang-out then yours, but I'm still vetoing the "ugly" :-p

― Patrick, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Erm, waaaaay up thread, much of what's stated is reliant on existence of Universal Human Nature (a concurrent ILE thread), eg. all men hate women a bit & vice versa, or not. There's perhaps also distinction required between Garden Variety Mysogynists (eg. type Ally deals w/ who [as she sed] just need a good rooting, ie. they're bitter, not "real" woman-haters) vs. "real" mysogynists (eg. umm, rock icon J*hnny Thunders! Popular hit: "There's a little bit of whore in every little girl" [he may be right/different issue!]). To answer question topic/state obvious = sex.

― AP, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Putting the obvious into words: Most men who are misogynists have few close female friends, but *very* strong bonds with other men. The amount of sex they get is coincidental, because the majority of sex is not between friends. I don't think it matters whether these people's experiences with women are one-night-stands or in porn mags, they're still rendered unable to communicate with women as anything other than giggling sex objects.

― Graham, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Graham, that is probably one of the most thought-worthy things anyone has said on this thread. I really think you've hit the nail on the head.

― Kate the Saint, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

The worst misogynists I've known have usually been married, with a submissive wife who is in complete denial about her level of submission. And I'm not talking conservative Christian housewives - I'm talking people who have actually been in my social circle. So yes, they're "getting laid" on a regular basis, but not because they're so irresistable to women. It's more like (IME), they know how to take advantage of people's insecurities. It's usually someone who can convince a vulnerable person that he is more than he really is. All based on personal experience, of course.

― Kerry, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

There is something to all this. Look at Greek society in the classical days. Strong value on male freindship and love, women devalued. Of course this isnt to imply gays hate women.

― Mike Hanle y, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

So why can't people just talk to each other? Or so it seems the question is. And even better yet, could all of us be having this discussion if it was face to face?

I did like Graham's point as well. Who's doing the talking there? Or even attempting the listening?

What was interesting was growing up and thinking to myself that I'd never do anything horrible to a woman to make her cry, seeing as I was never going to be a wifebeater or hurler of sexist insults or whatever. And yet I did make people cry because of my own faults regardless. :-( Hopefully I've learned...but have I?

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Nick D: 1. Why is fatherhood your most urgent ambition? 2. What are you doing to fulfil it?

You don't have to answer, of course, and I don't mean to be impertinent about sth which is presumably very personal. I am just curious.

Are you, um, putting the cart before the horse?

― the pinefox, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Graham's point is valid, but I think it leaves out a whole other universe of casual misogyny. Plenty of men have female friends that they can legitimately relate to, but as tarden and mark s. discussed earlier, they harbor a lot of resentment over the fact that men have now assumed a sort of 'acceptable scapegoat' role in the media these days, and a lot of double standards have cropped up (or not been obliterated along with various misogynist dogma that was blasted into oblivion by feminism). Classic example, a female professor of mine actually said 'well, men *are* pigs' quite casually in the middle of class. No reaction. Imagine a male professor making a comment like 'well, women *are* sluts' in the same situation - they'd be fired, one would hope, or at least heavily censured by the class.
A friend's argument as to why the original comment really isn't a big deal is that men haven't been prevented from voting or getting jobs based on their alleged inferiority, and so this sort of statement isn't damaging to men, and therefore harmless. I disagree for two reasons: 1) hearing people get away with comments like this make some men really angry, which contributes to a backlash which I have noticed is on the rise; and 2) I always thought it was unacceptable to promote gross generalizations about any group, regardless of whether they were in the majority or otherwise. So should we as a society discourage casual man-hating talk as much as we discourage misogyny, or is man-hating both harmless and/or a woman's prerogative?

― Dave M., Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Dave M highlights why I have to be forcibly restrained when I hear someone say tht it is impossible for a Black person to be racist.

― Dan Perry, Friday, 20 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

What prompted this thread was my friend (who shall remain nameless) on Wednesday saying he didn't like Eminem anymore because "the girls" have cottoned on to him, and only like him because he's "so cute". He often comes out with shit like this, usually along the lines of women aren't funny / haven't made any worthwhile contribution to music etc, and I don't know whether he's joking any more - he does like to shock, but sometimes I think it's a cover for something more serious. Also the divine LC is often one to complain about being patronised, often being told she's really clever, for a girl. Obviously these examples are not on the scale of actual physical or sexual assault, but it's just these insidious assumptions are the thin end of the wedge, as they say. This may sound really cheesy, but why can't people realise that people are just people, they're all different, and should be treated as such - it really would solve a lot of problems and unhappiness if people would just *think for a minute*. Obviously, this applies to man-haters as well - I don't buy this argument that because X has been oppressed at some point in time it's OK for them to attempt to do the same thing in one way or another to Y. Grr!

― DG, Friday, 20 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Gotta admit something -- whatever 'male bashing' I've ever encountered in these generalized senses I've always shrugged off. Never really bothered or affected me. Anyone trashes women, though, I get pissed. Go figure.

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 20 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

What makes some women hate men?

― Mike Hanle y, Friday, 20 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I think it's beard envy.

― Nick, Friday, 20 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

re: 'men are pigs" etc etc; a few years ago there was a humorous hallmark card insert in every issue of newsweek magazine (i.e., every issue had the same blank card inside it, probably a quite expensive promotion). the front read something like 'blah blah blah, you're a good friend, we're like sisters, etc. just don't worry if your boyfriend says you're smothering him ...'

the punchline, on the inside: 'that just means you aren't pressing down the pillow hard enough!'. the rising amount of unreported woman-on-man domestic makes this very unfunny to me. i'm too tired for it right now, but anyone want to theorize about 'goodbye earl'? the video, gah.

― ethan, Friday, 20 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I don't condone the man-bashing examples listed above (I hate even having to preface my statements with that), but backlashers really have no excuse for their behavior and attitudes. From what I've seen, a lot of it is simply the same old crap resurfacing.

― Kerry Keane, Friday, 20 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

None of that shit bothers me in the slightest, because none of it could ever be conceived under any stretch of the imagination as a threat to me. I think you need to have a certain streak of paranoia to start with to get into that whiney "men are scapegoats" mindset.

― Patrick, Friday, 20 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

It's a double-edged sword, though; why is it okay to make these types of jokes about men but not about women?

(For the record: I thought the joke was funny, but the humor has more to do with the inherent wrongness of it being okay to murder your SO. Gender wasn't a factor.)

― Dan Perry, Friday, 20 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Skipping 323 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

As religion should be!

― kenan, Friday, 28 September 2007 20:16 (sixteen years ago) link

"I'm looking for a church that encourages various acts of sodomy."

― Michael White, Friday, 28 September 2007 20:33 (sixteen years ago) link

I think actually the closest to party churches would be huge megachurches with social groups for every age and interest, but then you might have to be willing to accept pretty fundamentalist theology. (I go for the Episcopalian mellowness instead.)

― Maria, Friday, 28 September 2007 20:59 (sixteen years ago) link

I believe many religions encourage sexual deviance, they just don't condone it.

― kenan, Friday, 28 September 2007 21:10 (sixteen years ago) link

the kenanical interpretation

― latebloomer, Friday, 28 September 2007 21:16 (sixteen years ago) link

Fundamentalism makes you freaky, proven by science

― kenan, Friday, 28 September 2007 21:18 (sixteen years ago) link

My mom is involved in a church where they all choose silly hats from a box before the service, and sing selections from musicals instead of hymns. I'm afraid to ask her what its called.

― Jaq, Friday, 28 September 2007 21:20 (sixteen years ago) link

high school theater

― ghost rider, Friday, 28 September 2007 21:29 (sixteen years ago) link

quite possibly.

― Jaq, Friday, 28 September 2007 21:35 (sixteen years ago) link

Some women hate men because they have been physically and mentally abused; same thing with men. Case solved.

― Jeb, Friday, 28 September 2007 22:12 (sixteen years ago) link

Some men think they hate women, when they really hate themselves.

― libcrypt, Saturday, 29 September 2007 05:32 (sixteen years ago) link

why do some women hate

― darraghmac, Saturday, 29 September 2007 13:07 (sixteen years ago) link

Some men think they hate women, when they really hate themselves.

either way, it's really charming.

― kenan, Saturday, 29 September 2007 13:23 (sixteen years ago) link

What religion has the most scope for parties?

― ogmor, Saturday, 29 September 2007 18:11 (sixteen years ago) link

mormons have some barn burners I hear

― El Tomboto, Saturday, 29 September 2007 18:14 (sixteen years ago) link

Really I just want a piece of this
http://www.badmovieplanet.com/inferno/archives/infernocam/wick8.JPG

― ogmor, Saturday, 29 September 2007 20:47 (sixteen years ago) link

I think men and women get a raw deal sometime, but men are less able to speak out.

― mei, Monday, 1 October 2007 16:12 (sixteen years ago) link

oh bull

― kenan, Monday, 1 October 2007 16:14 (sixteen years ago) link

i don't hate women. the girl who cheated on me a few years ago is one exception, though.

― omar little, Monday, 1 October 2007 17:30 (sixteen years ago) link

kabbalists clearly win partying category

http://joshuasjukebox.com/blog1/images/Britney-Madonna-MTV-VideoAwards-2003.jpg

― sunny successor, Monday, 1 October 2007 17:47 (sixteen years ago) link

I think men and women get a raw deal sometime, but men are less able to speak out.
-- mei, Monday, 1 October 2007 16:12 (1 hour ago) Link

oh bull
-- kenan, Monday, 1 October 2007 16:14 (1 hour ago) Link

Recursive LOL.
As a man I speak out about what I percieve to be men's situation and get stomped.

― mei, Monday, 1 October 2007 18:01 (sixteen years ago) link

That is such amazing irony that I'm sure it was planned.

― HI DERE, Monday, 1 October 2007 18:08 (sixteen years ago) link

He was a h8r boi
She said 'see ya l8r boi'

― Abbott, Monday, 1 October 2007 18:54 (sixteen years ago) link

i just read "various" in m. white's post as "vicious"

― gff, Monday, 1 October 2007 19:00 (sixteen years ago) link

http://denisdutton.com/baumeister.htm

― mayhaps, Monday, 1 October 2007 19:36 (sixteen years ago) link

six months pass...

http://blingkits.com/DVD%20DVD/Menstruation/Menstration6.jpg

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 15 April 2008 15:57 (sixteen years ago) link

eight years pass...

Surely, surely, surely we got this sorted?

― poor fiddy-less albion (darraghmac), Thursday, 25 August 2016 00:29 (seven years ago) link

in binders, iirc

― brimstead, Thursday, 25 August 2016 00:30 (seven years ago) link

Hiyoo

― poor fiddy-less albion (darraghmac), Thursday, 25 August 2016 00:41 (seven years ago) link

Why Do (some) People Ask Overly-Broad Questions on Message Boards?

I mean, really now.

― a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Thursday, 25 August 2016 00:42 (seven years ago) link

It draws the crowd, eventually they get around to the pitch (which almost always disappoints)

― poor fiddy-less albion (darraghmac), Thursday, 25 August 2016 00:43 (seven years ago) link

They see in women a constant, painful reminder of their own incipient boobage.

― Two Kisses and Three Wet Mouths (Old Lunch), Thursday, 25 August 2016 04:13 (seven years ago) link

(not all) Men

― socka flocka-jones (man alive), Thursday, 25 August 2016 04:14 (seven years ago) link

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