"Beyond the Corner": New Miles Davis Box Set

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listening now. only on disc 1 so far. my local store had a 20% off sale and this was sitting there beckoning alluringly. I had only come in to get the new Robert Wyatt but I am probably never going to see this for $96 again. hell yeah the sax on "Rated X" is rockin me.

sleeve, Sunday, 18 November 2007 03:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

"pear-shaped" is an idiom I've read on ilx a bit that I don't really understand

Britishers use it to mean "not right," and usually "very wrong," like... I dunno... the plan in The Italian Job. But it's an evocative phrase by itself, I think. Not round, not perfect, a bit... pear-shaped. Just a little off. Doesn't have to be a bad thing.

kenan, Sunday, 18 November 2007 03:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

I've heard it on Doctor Who and never known what the hell it meant. Thanks dude.

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, 18 November 2007 03:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

further comments on disc 1...

wow that wasn't Rated X but I swear it was similar. Wasn't there an extended single CD of OTC that had some of these longer pieces like the "Helen Butte/Mr Freedom X" unedited master?

sleeve, Sunday, 18 November 2007 03:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

5 months pass...

cranking this right now. geez louise, some of this stuff is INTENSE.

tylerw, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 18:43 (5 years ago) Permalink

And some of this stuff MEANDERS.

tylerw, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 18:48 (5 years ago) Permalink

I guess that's what I paid for.

tylerw, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 18:49 (5 years ago) Permalink

I dunno, I don't hear it as meandering...certainly it meanders a fuck of a lot less than parts of The Complete Bitches Brew Sessions ("Guinivere" fucking defines interminable).

Sara Sara Sara, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 19:13 (5 years ago) Permalink

3 years pass...

cranking this right now. geez louise, some of this stuff is INTENSE.

― tylerw, Wednesday, April 30, 2008 6:43 PM (3 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

And some of this stuff MEANDERS.

― tylerw, Wednesday, April 30, 2008 6:48 PM (3 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, 29 April 2012 12:23 (1 year ago) Permalink

Given that this period of Miles is probably top 2 or 3 all time in terms of importance to my own development as a musician and listener, I'm not entirely sure how I never bought this.

Naive Teen Idol, Monday, 30 April 2012 04:33 (1 year ago) Permalink

maybe because it's crazy expensive?
anyway, yeah, i love hearing the uncut jams from the various bands from this era. but in the end, i think it makes me appreciate the albums even more. teo macero and miles were really onto something incredible when they constructed the LPs.

tylerw, Monday, 30 April 2012 13:50 (1 year ago) Permalink

Ordered this used for $85 just a coupla weeks ago, looking forward to seeing it in the mailbox anyday now (except it probably won't fit)!

Race Against Rockism (Myonga Vön Bontee), Monday, 30 April 2012 23:14 (1 year ago) Permalink

9 months pass...

Where do people come out on Teo Macero?Listening to this box on Spotify, I'm struck by how little editing there actually seems to have been on On the Corner. Listening to the "unedited master" of the title cut, you're almost ten minutes in before you hear something different from the edited master (McLaughlin soloing, organ noodling, Miles with the quiet introduction when the band brings it down a bit). As a college student when I first heard this stuff, I had been under the impression that Teo was splicing whole rhythm sections under solos from different tracks. What seems to be revealed here is that far more of the magic happened live in the studio (or at an overdub session) -- certainly compared to Bitches Brew anyway, where Teo was looping whole phrases to create melodies and the like.

I'd be interested to see Bob Belden's "tribute" to Teo Macero in the box. Given how disparaging Bill Laswell has been about Teo's work, and Macero's displeasure with these "complete sessions" boxes being released at all, it makes me wonder if Belden's essay was a substantive rebuttal or more a matter of politics.

Naive Teen Idol, Friday, 15 February 2013 23:18 (1 year ago) Permalink

Didn't know Laswell was disparaging about Teo's work!

Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Friday, 15 February 2013 23:29 (1 year ago) Permalink

Where do people come out on Teo Macero?Listening to this box on Spotify, I'm struck by how little editing there actually seems to have been on On the Corner. Listening to the "unedited master" of the title cut, you're almost ten minutes in before you hear something different from the edited master

huh? there's an edit right at the beginning. The album version actually starts at about 0:47 of the unedited master, but it's an alternate mix with the solo turned down. you can hear the bleed faintly in the background. Then at about 0:32 on the album version you can hear the edit where it goes back to what's actually the beginning of the unedited master (about 3 secs in to be precise).

wk, Saturday, 16 February 2013 00:50 (1 year ago) Permalink

http://open.spotify.com/album/4ORrWT9p5FH1jhTCATKEcj

Brad C., Saturday, 16 February 2013 01:24 (1 year ago) Permalink

huh? there's an edit right at the beginning. The album version actually starts at about 0:47 of the unedited master, but it's an alternate mix with the solo turned down. you can hear the bleed faintly in the background. Then at about 0:32 on the album version you can hear the edit where it goes back to what's actually the beginning of the unedited master (about 3 secs in to be precise).

Correct you are. The groove seems to obscure them a bit. I'm still stunned when I look at Bob Belden's explanations of the edits to "Pharaoh's Dance" -- in some ways, I was disappointed by that box, because I'd have loved to have heard the actual working tapes of those tracks, which I suspect may not have sounded much like the final product at all.

Naive Teen Idol, Saturday, 16 February 2013 05:29 (1 year ago) Permalink

Also, on the Bitches Brew box, they used a digital remix instead of the original analog masters. This means that they re-created every edit. I haven't noticed any differences myself, but there are those that swear some of the edits are a hair off -- or missing altogether.

Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Saturday, 16 February 2013 05:50 (1 year ago) Permalink

I never even heard the edits on pharaoh's dance before I knew they were there but it's funny how clumsy some of them are.

wk, Saturday, 16 February 2013 05:56 (1 year ago) Permalink

funny in the sense that it's interesting how easy edits are to overlook if you're not listening for them

wk, Saturday, 16 February 2013 05:57 (1 year ago) Permalink

Yeah, totally. I never realized how many edits I missed in In A Silent Way until I heard the unedited takes on the box.

Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Saturday, 16 February 2013 06:07 (1 year ago) Permalink

Yeah, "Shhh/Peaceful" was basically looped from a handful of material culled from a 19-minute track and overdubbed from what I can tell.

"Pharaoh's Dance" on the box is missing loops and so forth. I'm not entirely sure how you assemble a box of that magnitude and miss stuff like that.

I would just love to hear what the Bitches Brew stuff would've sounded like had they done a Jack Johnson-esque box with the working tapes. Obviously it wouldn't have been nearly as listenable -- but far more educational.

Naive Teen Idol, Saturday, 16 February 2013 18:41 (1 year ago) Permalink

Listening to the unedited "Shhh/Peaceful," I was floored when that organ chord happened: it's only there for a couple of seconds near the end, but Macero was brilliant/astute enough to hear it as the perfect starting point.

It's baffling why they didn't use the original mix for the BB box; even the 40th Anniversary edition has the digital remix on the CDs (but the original mix on the LPs). I have no idea what their logic/justification for that was.

Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Saturday, 16 February 2013 19:22 (1 year ago) Permalink

Obvious guess would be that either the master tapes were missing or damaged.

Naive Teen Idol, Sunday, 17 February 2013 19:47 (1 year ago) Permalink

I wondered about that too, especially there were no such issues (iirc) with any of Miles' other (and older) records/reissues.

But this piece by Paul Tingen more-or-less answers the question(s).

(although it sounds like Sony insisted on a remix and "oh, the tapes are no good" was a convenient -- and not easily verifiable -- justification)

Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Sunday, 17 February 2013 20:36 (1 year ago) Permalink

Re-reading passages from the Tingen book now (good book, btw) I love how Paul Buckmaster came in with all these über-"heavy" charts to create some Stockhausen/Sly Stone hybrid only to be in the middle of describing the drum fills he'd composed for the band when Miles cut him off and was like, "Yeah, play that" -- blowing off the rest of Buckmaster's charts and leaving the final groove on "On the Corner" almost comically unfunky.

I still find most of Teo's edits on this one kind of unnecessary btw.

Naive Teen Idol, Sunday, 17 February 2013 23:10 (1 year ago) Permalink

Miles, like Teo, was an incredible genius at editing. "Shhh/Peaceful," in its unedited form, prominently features Josef Zawinul's theme, but Miles and/or Teo knew exactly what to leave on the cutting room floor. I think part of Miles' genius, cruel though it might have been at times, was to say, "That thing you labored on for hours/days/weeks/months? Yeah, we don't need that."

And with On The Corner, I think Teo did some brilliant work. I don't think his edits are unnecessary; I think they add focus and cohesion.

Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Monday, 18 February 2013 00:35 (1 year ago) Permalink

live albums from this era are great, so all of the editing is technically unnecessary, right? It's not like Macero's editing was saving recordings that were otherwise unlistenable in their raw state. He just added that 10% extra structure that makes things a little more interesting. And the opening of On the Corner is a great example of that because the album version begins in a much more exciting way than the unedited track. It's funny because the supposedly unedited track actually sounds like you're dropping into the middle of something that's already in progress while the edited version sounds like a proper beginning.

wk, Monday, 18 February 2013 01:47 (1 year ago) Permalink

I guess I would agree with that. The editing is generally just a lot more subtle on OTC than on Bitches Brew, where whole compositions are rendered from the end of Teo's razor blade. Generally, tho, OTC doesn't really "function" like a composition the same way even BB's cuts did. There are very few variations, the dynamics are considerably reduced and the melody is, "Black Satin" notwithstanding, pretty much nonexistent. As a result, I just feel like Teo's edits tighten it up more than "re-compose" the thing.

Does anyone else think "Bitches Brew" is a thirty-minute "Spinnin' Wheel" variation, btw?

Naive Teen Idol, Monday, 18 February 2013 03:00 (1 year ago) Permalink

the blood sweat and tears song?

wk, Monday, 18 February 2013 06:32 (1 year ago) Permalink

Yup

Naive Teen Idol, Monday, 18 February 2013 13:07 (1 year ago) Permalink

Was flipping through John Szwed's (highly recommended) Miles bio last night, and it says that Miles was indeed consciously riffing on "Spinning Wheel" (as well as one of Betty Davis' demos). So I guess that song's existence is finally justified.

Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Wednesday, 20 February 2013 15:54 (1 year ago) Permalink

< pats self on back>

Naive Teen Idol, Thursday, 21 February 2013 03:24 (1 year ago) Permalink

(actually, I figure I must've heard that info somewhere before)

Naive Teen Idol, Thursday, 21 February 2013 03:38 (1 year ago) Permalink

oh yeah, I hear it now. interesting.

wk, Thursday, 21 February 2013 04:30 (1 year ago) Permalink


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