― Sean, Saturday, 16 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
― Michael Bourke, Saturday, 16 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
Mark- I have only one Zappa album- Guitar- a 2 CD set of his solos.
Good guitarist but he writes some poor arrangements for his fellow
players. You can see why some people hate zappa's solo career. But I
rather listen to his guitar playing than stooges/MC5.
Iggy gets good reviews from Ben and I couldn't care less. He
has 'atitude' but the music sucks, and that's the biggest crime of
'i think the mc5 are overrated, but i may possibly nevah have heard
them, i just find the way ppl talk abt them boring'
that's because they are boring. I could try and analyse Kick out of
the jams and give a blow by blow account on this album but life is
too short, and I have to catch up on my anthony braxton CDs.
― Julio Desouza, Saturday, 16 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
― kiwi, Saturday, 16 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
Because, rather simply and bluntly put, it ROCKS! Have ye not ears?
Listen to that riff!!!!
Don't be such a knee-jerk critic-o-phobe. It undermines your argument,
and just makes you look like a contrarian. True, critics do slather
needlessly all over certain artists, but in this particular case, I'd
wager they're on to something.
― Alex in NYC, Saturday, 16 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
HOWEVER: [[A => B] => C] = [-C => - [A => B]].
Hence ppl talk abt them boringly for othah reasons
― mark s, Saturday, 16 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
Anyway, I like the MC5. Good rawk and roll and hysterical banter.
I'd love to see someone prove that it is "bad" though. Hehehehe.
― Alex in SF, Saturday, 16 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
― Tracer Hand, Saturday, 16 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
Alex- I love listening to the sound of the guitar. But I can't hear
what is obvious to you and therefore I will say it's rubbish.
Mark- I did not imply that braxton is boring. What's all that other
'Hence ppl talk abt them boringly for othah reasons'
No, it can't be proven by science. But it doesn't matter.
'Wow, someone sounds like a total prat. Doesn't bug the living fuck
out of me though. Just makes me giggle.'
And I don't give a shit either. But all I've done is to disagree with
another person's opinion.
"what are these reasons?" — i haf no idea: logic need not concern itself w.substantive detail (which is lucky for me)
Right, I forgot. Only black men from the 60s with saxophones can
make "fiery, soulful" music. Melissa's not the only one you're
bugging the fuck out of. And I like Anthony Braxton.
― Clarke B., Saturday, 16 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
I actually don't like terms like fire music in relation to free jazz.
It's a stupid term made up just to sell this music. Anthony braxton
is not 'classfied' as fire. You've read my comment wrongly.
Partly I asked this question 'cos I was wondering why the current
crop of 'exciting' white boy rock classicists - The Strokes, The
Hives, Black Rebel Motorcyle Club etc - totally avoid ANY kind of
overtly 'political' content, unlike the MC5.
And I think Wayne Kramer is one of the all-time great rock
guitarists, as if such a thing still matters at this late stage in
― Andrew L, Saturday, 16 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
I know Braxton isn't typically categorized as "fire," I just
mentioned him because he had been mentioned quite a few times already
in the thread. And I was also trying to pre-empt any snide comments
you might care to throw my way about my ignorance of the matter at
hand. I don't want to start a fight or anything, I just feel like
you're coming across kind of harshly; it's comments like the ones
you've been making lately that give fans of experimental and avant-
garde music a bad rep.
Are you quoting someone here, Clarke? 'Cause if you are, I'd like to
see the context. Of course if you look hard enough you'll probably
find some classicist free jazz musicians, just as you'll find
classicists musicians/fans of any genre. But offhand I can't think of
any free jazz purists-- and you'd think that if a lot of them were
lurking, that Spring Heel Jack record from last year and the new Matt
Shipp would've brought them out of the woodwork big time. These were,
after all, very high profile releases by just about the most high
profile players out there, and if you go over to, like, freejazz.org,
you won't see much if any backlash. So I'm not sure how anyone could
reasonably argue that "present-day free jazzers" are as classicist as
Not completely sure what this adds to the discussion, 'cause I pretty
much agree with you, but the sort of sneering Julio's doing, while
obnoxious, is only tangentially related to the defensive purist
sneering you're talking about in your last post.
― charlie va, Sunday, 17 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
mc5 are ok. some good rocking. as for punk coming out of mc5, or the
residents or the stooges or beefheart or whatever. it's not a one-
band thing anyway.
― olly 360, Sunday, 17 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
Well, they didn't pull it off with any sort of conviction.
'I think it's funny that Julio is getting all Free Jazz snob on us'
Not at all I love guitar bands like Dead C and Fuchitsusha for
instance, electroacoustic music, free improv and a some indie bands
like husker du and low and some punk as well. Don't misinterpret my
comments on the MC5 to come up with that conclusion.
'The MC5's 'project' of combining James Brown, Sun Ra and The Who'
Well, I rather listen to james brown and sun ra. Yes, and john
sinclair I think had the tapes for 'it is forbidden' (recently issued
recording of a gig where the arkestra opened for James brown). They
may have had the idea but from the records I don't actually think
they did a good at putting together these influences to come up with
something new or even something to listen to. The band had
'the worst thing about zappa must be the guitar solos. it's a bunch
wanking. zappa without the jokes couldn't be more boring to me. and
that seems to be the kinda stuff you are into.'
See my comments up there. Other guitarists I like: Keiji haino,
Masayuki takayanagi, Michael Morley, Keith levene, Blood Ulmer, derek
bailey, keith rowe and yes, Farnk Zappa.
― Julio Desouza, Sunday, 17 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
― mark s, Sunday, 17 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
I always find it problematic when people try to be funny or when they
(lyricists) try 'poetical' langague though I love beeefheart's lyrics.
'but the sort of sneering Julio's doing, while obnoxious'
It's not obnoxious is it? I used the f-word in my first post but I
just refuse to accept this guff abt MC5.
And i just want to add that terms like 'free' in free jazz don't
describe the variety within 'it'. But lets not forget that we use
such terms so that we can get some discussion going.
― J, Sunday, 17 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
― Clarke B., Sunday, 17 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
― chaki, Sunday, 17 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
(BTW yes i like them tons...best alb. = "High Time"...everything i'd
care to say has already been said here tho)
― , Sunday, 17 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
― Sean Carruthers, Sunday, 17 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
I accept that I might have implied that BUT as I've said before I
like rock. I, in fact, love it. Goddamit, its the first i started
I've never said the MC5 was caveman rock. They tried to match free
jazz WITH rock. Just like, say, the stooges and what I've said is
that from listening to the records, they don't pull it off.
'Plus, your list of guitarists reads like a "The Insufferable
Hipster's Top Ten Guitar Gods" thread on ILM.'
I'm not being a hipster: someone else started it because I said I
liked Zappa's guitar playing (because mark asked me whether I liked
zappa and if I was a hipster he wouldn't be on my list). So I cited
other guitarists that I liked because that person said it was a load
Again, I've listened to many more (Others I didn't mention: D. Boon,
Bob mould, Stefan jaworzyn, rudolph grey, etc.). These are all really
good guitarists that I like and if some people haven't heard them and
they haven't listened to some of the records these people were in
then they should give it a go.
― Julio Desouza, Monday, 18 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
― mark s, Monday, 18 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
I think people are being too harsh on Julio though. He's a poster
with a limited range of tastes and his position on the MC5 is
perfectly consistent. To someone who listens to the stuff he does the
MC5 probably sound like Gorillaz do to lots of us, i.e. a misplaced,
patronising and botched hybridisation.
― Tom, Monday, 18 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
Tom- my brother likes Goraillaz, so I got to know what they sound
like. Unlucky for me.
The problem isn't really one of limited tastes, but of limited social
― Alex in SF, Monday, 18 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
tom - nah don't reckon. *everyone* i have *ever known* likes all the
same shit he likes,& they all wuv the '5.
― duane, Monday, 18 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
And I think I'm prob. guilty of overegging the MC5 jazz-rock pud.
Most often they sound like The Who...
― Andrew L, Monday, 18 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
― , Monday, 18 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
I've no problem with people being harsh to me. Because this is a
discussion group and I'm providing some disagreement and I'm more
than happy to defend my position. This thread would have been over
and done with hadn't I done so.
'The problem isn't really one of limited tastes, but of limited
social skills. '
You are the one calling me an 'insufferable wank' so you are the one
who needs to work on your social skills but thanks I am highly
By the way: I hate a lot of groups that have been give the 'wire'
seal of approval as well. Including the MC5.
No, you are! mimes sticking out tongue
(i wasn't calling you a doorag julio, i wuz calling duane doorag a
I don't care abt insults. Some people will resort to such rubbish but
I don't care.
― owen hatherley, Monday, 18 March 2002 01:00 (12 years ago) Permalink
Yeah, I believe that as it's ths standard critical line on them. The fact that everyone judges them by their worst album is why I think the band is underrated (though I'll concede that one album is overrated). Your statement kind of implies that you haven't really listened to them in years and when you did you were listening with the baggage of "received wisdom." But I guess that's fair enough. MC5 might be one of those bands where if you don't hear it when you're a teenager you'll never hear it.
― walter kranz (walterkranz), Saturday, 23 April 2005 16:40 (9 years ago) Permalink
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 23 April 2005 16:53 (9 years ago) Permalink
― Amon (eman), Sunday, 24 April 2005 01:09 (9 years ago) Permalink
― schlump, Monday, 1 September 2008 13:06 (5 years ago) Permalink
I'm not a huge fan of the ROCK these days but I respectively submit that any fan of 70s guitar music needs to have "I Can Only Give You Everything" and "Looking At You" in their collection. While they may not have actually ever hit that transcendental moment, for me their best tunes always have them striving for it.
― factcheckr, Monday, 1 September 2008 13:30 (5 years ago) Permalink
i don't know. maybe because i think YES to i can only give you everything (who wrote that?, by the way? i know it's like a nuggets staple you can hear van morrison &c doing), but not necessarily yes to looking at you. but i think their most interesting stuff isn't so rock. even if it's stupid-heavy, things like come together aren't really riff-rockin' classics. and then there's the totally not-rock stuff, revolutionary blues and skunk and stuff. i don't think their best stuff's abides to the form of heavy-ass rock-songs or anything.
― schlump, Monday, 1 September 2008 14:03 (5 years ago) Permalink
I think I Can Only Give You Everything was originally written for the Troggs by one of those songwriting teams, but every garage band and his dog did a version of it.
― Colonel Poo, Monday, 1 September 2008 14:09 (5 years ago) Permalink
Yeah, I've got "Trogglodynamite" which is where I know it from.
― Mark G, Monday, 1 September 2008 14:10 (5 years ago) Permalink
― Wrinkles, I'll see you on the other side (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 24 February 2010 21:25 (4 years ago) Permalink
lyrics are kinda cheese but that electric autoharp sounds amazing
― Brio, Wednesday, 24 February 2010 21:36 (4 years ago) Permalink
― Brio, Wednesday, 24 February 2010 21:42 (4 years ago) Permalink
― Brio, Wednesday, 24 February 2010 21:46 (4 years ago) Permalink
I didn't know there was another rockin' electric autoharp player. I mean, aside from the guy from Cold Sun.
― Gorgeous Ladies Of Curling (GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ), Thursday, 25 February 2010 02:36 (4 years ago) Permalink
Also that Ted Taylor tune is fucking boss
Yeah, I was kind of surprised when I first heard it to hear how close the MC5 stayed to the original - obviously they rock it up a bit, but all the good stuff in their version is right there in the Ted Taylor tune.
― Brio, Thursday, 25 February 2010 15:09 (4 years ago) Permalink
The comparison between those two videos is like the perfect example why rock music sucks compared to R&B/soul. That MC5 dude can't sing at all, and the awesome groove is lost under guitar theatrics.
― Tuomas, Friday, 26 February 2010 14:13 (4 years ago) Permalink
awww come on. there's room for awesome R&B grooves and bad singing/guitar theatrics rock music in the world.
― Brio, Friday, 26 February 2010 15:40 (4 years ago) Permalink
One thing that flips my wig on that Ted Taylor 45 is the production is credited to Billy Sherrill, which is probably is the same guy eventually known for the country-politan sound of early 70s recordings by George Jones, Tammy Wynette and Charlie Rich.
The music biz used to be a way smaller place.
― earlnash, Sunday, 28 February 2010 05:09 (4 years ago) Permalink
RIP Michael Davis:
Michael Davis, the bassist of influential late 1960s rock band MC5, has died of liver failure, his wife said Saturday. He was 68.Davis died at Enloe Medical Center in Chico, Calif., on Friday afternoon after a month-long hospitalization for liver disease, said Angela Davis.
Davis died at Enloe Medical Center in Chico, Calif., on Friday afternoon after a month-long hospitalization for liver disease, said Angela Davis.
― Ned Raggett, Sunday, 19 February 2012 05:42 (2 years ago) Permalink
― Janet Snakehole (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 19 February 2012 05:57 (2 years ago) Permalink
I stood frontrow before him during the '04 reunion show here. After the show I swiped his setlist only to have this cute girl ask me to see it and run away after I handed it over.
Fortunately I was able to get back to the stage to steal Marshall Crenshaw's copy.
― Mike Love Costume Jewelry on Etsy (C. Grisso/McCain), Sunday, 19 February 2012 06:11 (2 years ago) Permalink
This is deeply saddening. A good friend of mine played with him in Destroy All Monsters, had nothing but nice things to say about him.
― Let A Man Come In And Do The Cop Porn (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Sunday, 19 February 2012 06:31 (2 years ago) Permalink
i was facebook 'friends' with him, he always seemed very happy and content and full of life. what a fucking huge bummer
― Stormy Davis, Sunday, 19 February 2012 07:14 (2 years ago) Permalink
― Stormy Davis, Sunday, 19 February 2012 07:17 (2 years ago) Permalink
― Janet Snakehole (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 19 February 2012 07:20 (2 years ago) Permalink
Looking over thread...
One thing that flips my wig on that Ted Taylor 45 is the production is credited to Billy Sherrill, which is probably is the same guy eventually known for the country-politan sound of early 70s recordings by George Jones, Tammy Wynette and Charlie Rich.The music biz used to be a way smaller place.
Billy Sherrill also produced some of The Remains studio stuff. Also, I have a copy of Jerry Lee Lewis doing "Ramblin' Rose" near the end of his Sun tenure. Supposedly he recorded it first, but his version didn't hit the streets 'til '69-70.
― Mike Love Costume Jewelry on Etsy (C. Grisso/McCain), Sunday, 19 February 2012 07:48 (2 years ago) Permalink
oh man, so sad to hear. <3 you always.
― Little GTFO (contenderizer), Sunday, 19 February 2012 07:54 (2 years ago) Permalink
― Stormy Davis, Sunday, 19 February 2012 09:19 (2 years ago) Permalink
their earliest footage unless I'm mistaken. Shows them off as dandyish, I always thought they were a jeans & tshirt band until I heard that they had wives and girlfriends making a lot of clothes for them.
Sorry to hear about Mike Davis, hope he didn't suffer too much at the end. He was in hospital for a month. So have to assume he must have been.
Do wish somebody would release a compi of whatever complete footage with sound there is. Would love to see a True Testimonial released, it's a pretty good film.So wonder if this death will trigger any new releases. A remastered set of lps would be good too. & will assume that Easy action will rerelease Purity, Accuracy the box set of rehearsal & live material.
― Stevolende, Sunday, 19 February 2012 11:21 (2 years ago) Permalink
Aww RIP Mike Davis.
Been listening to High Time like crazy lately, kind of an amazing record and I wish it hadn't taken me forever to get that.
― Will the waveform be unbroken? (GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ), Sunday, 19 February 2012 13:36 (2 years ago) Permalink
My brother texted me this news this morning. RIP Mike D. MC2 now?
― Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Sunday, 19 February 2012 13:37 (2 years ago) Permalink
Just reading various stuff about him on the internet this evening and it sounds like he was a genuinely good dude all round.
― Feebs K-Tel (NickB), Sunday, 19 February 2012 22:06 (2 years ago) Permalink
woooah, some people here seem to totally miss the point of the mc5. man, this is some fucking batshit freak the fuck out wild music. the energy and vibe they put out is phenomenal and they definitely set a high note for that kinda style. if you don't feel it, that's cool, but I'll never get enough of it.
― Spectrum, Thursday, 13 December 2012 00:59 (1 year ago) Permalink