I've actually been buying SPINs a lot lately, even though its been six months or so since my subscription ran out. The last one was REALLY disappointing. The Dischord article was haphazard, the Linkin Park piece blatantly unenthusiastic (understandably but still disappointing), and the Good Charlotte piece, despite being on the cover, was only half a page (for relationship advice, reaffirming Joel is the nice one). Plus the review are pretty bland.
I thought the lists issue was pretty funny though. Cute song quotes.
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 7 April 2003 20:14 (twenty-one years ago) link
― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 7 April 2003 22:58 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 7 April 2003 23:31 (twenty-one years ago) link
― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 7 April 2003 23:32 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 00:32 (twenty-one years ago) link
Agreed that the Spin list issue was terrible. It looked like something you'd find in some one-off 'zine stacked in some forgotten bar alcove.
Ira Robbins and Chuck Klosterman see the world differently, no news there.
― Mark (MarkR), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 00:50 (twenty-one years ago) link
nf
― notfazed (notfazed), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 01:47 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 01:54 (twenty-one years ago) link
1. anybody else wish SPIN reviewed more records? their section (and RS's, admittedly) gets punier and punier. and don't try to sell me on that "more records, more opinions, let's do this" thing.
2. anybody wish more than 15 people - with some writing 2-3 reviews per issue - were writing the reviews?
― Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 11:02 (twenty-one years ago) link
Of course he's motivated by his personal concern AND interest--is that so awful? I'd say yes, when he tries to pretend that's not what's motivating his writing--but when he occasionaly owns up to it I think it's hardly a problem. I'd argue that many people want their critics to be motivated by their particular emotional attachments; part of the fun of reading them is getting a glimpse of someone's possibly irrational passion for something that you don't feel so strongly about yourself. This is not to bolster up Klosterman's writing, cause I think it's got plenty of problems, as described throughout this thread. And so yeah, his playing of the popularity card is a problem cause it's disingenuous, but the personal motivation that he's trying to cover up doesn't seem as bad as the effort to obscure it.
― arch Ibog (arch Ibog), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:13 (twenty-one years ago) link
Certainly not! I think we're agreeing here. I have no problem with him talking about what he loves, but as you say, trying to justify something on the basis of its former popularity evades the issue.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:21 (twenty-one years ago) link
"The Guns 'N' Roses it's OK to like"
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:31 (twenty-one years ago) link
I think people here will likely have a bit of the Narcissism of Small Differences thing going on with this book -- the subject matter is so exactly the sort of thing covered here, and the approach to working through it is very similar, that the immediate response is to recoil when he gets this or that bit of it horribly wrong. (There's an unfortunate comment about Dexy's that would make some people's heads explode. And he has absolutely no clue what he's even saying about soccer.)
― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 19 May 2003 16:06 (twenty years ago) link
― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 19 May 2003 16:09 (twenty years ago) link
― James Blount (James Blount), Monday, 19 May 2003 16:20 (twenty years ago) link
― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 19 May 2003 16:21 (twenty years ago) link
― James Blount (James Blount), Monday, 19 May 2003 16:21 (twenty years ago) link
― James Blount (James Blount), Monday, 19 May 2003 16:22 (twenty years ago) link
― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Monday, 19 May 2003 16:25 (twenty years ago) link
So, even though he is defensive about 80s hair metal, and twists himself into a pretzel trying to defend its sexism and so on, there's almost a hollowness in the middle of his argument. I mean, I wish he'd simply take the idea that Theatre of Pain IS better than Tapestry, run with it, and see where that leads him.
― Wired Flounder (Wired Flounder), Monday, 19 May 2003 16:50 (twenty years ago) link
― dave q, Tuesday, 20 May 2003 12:13 (twenty years ago) link
however I agree it's not always fun to hear people try to tease out and pontificate on those reasons.
and agreed that the retroactivity of it all often feels like a dud.
― arch Ibog (arch Ibog), Tuesday, 20 May 2003 12:32 (twenty years ago) link
― chuck, Wednesday, 27 August 2003 19:23 (twenty years ago) link
― o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 19:31 (twenty years ago) link
― o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 19:38 (twenty years ago) link
?!?!??!?!? can we have a definition of avant-garde plz?
this is horrible. what an embarrassment for a paper that i thought had been all embarrassed out for years now. insult to injury -> this'll fuel chuck k's underdog complex even more!
― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 19:57 (twenty years ago) link
(my guess is k's schtick reminds him of his own, but he's languishing in the ussr writing for an awful paper while chuck gets big. i'm embarassed for him)
― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 20:01 (twenty years ago) link
― hstencil, Wednesday, 27 August 2003 20:03 (twenty years ago) link
― hstencil, Wednesday, 27 August 2003 20:06 (twenty years ago) link
― o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 20:11 (twenty years ago) link
It's like barely disguised aching homoeroticism or something.
― David A. (Davant), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 20:28 (twenty years ago) link
the press rarely writes about music (or any other subject); instead, it writes about what other writers are saying about music. and it always claims, of course, that they are wrong. it's as if the paper is staffed by a roomful of people who don't go to movies, don't listen to records, don't go outdoors, and probably don't socialize with other humans. they just read about all that stuff in other newspapers and magazines.
the thing that's amazing to me is that in spite of all that, they've managed to publish a number of really good writers over the years, including another guy named ames (jonathan) who i hope is no relation to this one.
― fact checking cuz, Wednesday, 27 August 2003 20:42 (twenty years ago) link
― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 20:47 (twenty years ago) link
― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 20:52 (twenty years ago) link
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 20:53 (twenty years ago) link
I feel another sarcastic tee-hee attack coming on.
― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 20:59 (twenty years ago) link
http://exile.ru/167/167122301.html
― Marcel Post (Marcel Post), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 21:20 (twenty years ago) link
― Carey (Carey), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 21:50 (twenty years ago) link
Chuck Klosterman doesn't sound like a lot of fun either. I'm really turning into a terrible reactionary I suppose but this kinda pop-culture riff essay style just.. doesn't make me feel like I've gained anything at all from having read it.
Oh, speaking of reviews - the Metafilter entry that linked to the Klosterman piece also linked to an extremely harsh yet hilarious review of a Chuck Palahniuk book in Salon - now THAT is worth reading. (the review I mean, obv.)
― daria g (daria g), Thursday, 28 August 2003 00:41 (twenty years ago) link
Probably also I do this sort of thing myself, and it seem there's a pretty strong element of defensiveness in his stance; criticism is instantaneously diverted because he already KNOWS it's "low culture."
― daria g (daria g), Thursday, 28 August 2003 00:44 (twenty years ago) link
― Jesse Fuchs (Jesse Fuchs), Thursday, 28 August 2003 00:45 (twenty years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 28 August 2003 02:11 (twenty years ago) link
That said, Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs isn't very good. Nor has been Klosterman's columns in SPIN.
But he's still a good writer. I was re-reading those comments by Ira Robbins...damn, that was scathing. And rather pious, I might add. Kind of depressing, really.
― don weiner, Thursday, 28 August 2003 02:38 (twenty years ago) link
― dave q, Thursday, 28 August 2003 08:37 (twenty years ago) link
― dave q, Thursday, 28 August 2003 08:47 (twenty years ago) link
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 28 August 2003 10:53 (twenty years ago) link
― dave q, Thursday, 28 August 2003 11:01 (twenty years ago) link
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 28 August 2003 11:28 (twenty years ago) link
― maura (maura), Thursday, 28 August 2003 16:35 (twenty years ago) link
obviously I take great issue w/them calling him the sharpest music writer of his generation when I've been on ilm for long enough to know much better
his shtick definitely affected writing styles overall, no doubt
― mh, Wednesday, 9 February 2022 22:33 (two years ago) link
also, lol that I missed this
its more difficult to tell the difference between a 2005 and 2020 film than a 1965 and 1995 film because one time period is twice as long as the other
― mh, Wednesday, 9 February 2022 22:35 (two years ago) link
He didn't say that. He compared 1965/1995 to 1990/today. He said it was hard to sense that 2005 was 16 years ago.
― Josefa, Wednesday, 9 February 2022 22:40 (two years ago) link
musical change was a mass culture one (e.g. of disco in 1976 giving way to post-punk in 1980).
except in 1980, mass culture wasn't post-punk - it was Pink Floyd, Billy Joel, Bob Seger, Queen, Kenny Rogers, etc
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 9 February 2022 22:42 (two years ago) link
xp ah, I was quoting a tweet, and while not strictly on the lines...
klosterman has never had a serious conversation with anyone who isn't white or born in north america in his life
there might be evidence to the contrary, but I'm skeptical
― mh, Wednesday, 9 February 2022 22:45 (two years ago) link
klosterman has never had a serious conversation with anyone who isn't white or born in north america in his life― mh, Wednesday, February 9, 2022 2:45 PM
― mh, Wednesday, February 9, 2022 2:45 PM
lol otm
― get shrunk by this funk. (Austin), Wednesday, 9 February 2022 22:49 (two years ago) link
fuck this trey anastasio looking motherfucker, amazing that he's kept up his streak of being both wrong and super annoying about everything for two decades now
― adam, Wednesday, 9 February 2022 22:52 (two years ago) link
the stupid quote in full
If you show someone an obscure film from 1965 and then an obscure film from 1995, anyone viewing those clips will be able to recognize which one is older. But I do not think that would be the case if you showed someone a movie from 1990 and a movie from now — the difference would seem much less.
Would someone really struggle to notice that Slacker or What's Eating Gilbert Grape weren't from the last couple of years?
― papal hotwife (milo z), Wednesday, 9 February 2022 22:58 (two years ago) link
they should go back and CG the Captain Jack Sparrow costume on to Depp in all his old movies
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 9 February 2022 23:00 (two years ago) link
my point was about the inherited narrative, not the reality.
― paulhw, Wednesday, 9 February 2022 23:13 (two years ago) link
that's very klosty of you
― mh, Wednesday, 9 February 2022 23:15 (two years ago) link
man notices that color films look different from black n white films
― xheugy eddy (D-40), Wednesday, 9 February 2022 23:29 (two years ago) link
xpost ah sorry misunderstood
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 9 February 2022 23:32 (two years ago) link
My son was just telling me the differences between the old Minecraft and the new Minecraft so obviously things are changing
― Chappies banging dustbin lids together (President Keyes), Wednesday, 9 February 2022 23:39 (two years ago) link
Like it's absolutely undeniable that the last 10 years in music (Future's 2012 to Lil Baby's 2022) is equally as stark and different as the change between, say, Chuck Berry's 1957 to Sly Stone's 1967.
I'm as ignorant as anyone here, so I decided to try this out. I listened to "Turn On the Lights" and "Voice of the Heroes", and while the emotional mood is different, the similarities (repeated keyboard arpeggios, stuttering hi-hats, squelchy bass) were striking, and there didn't feel like any particular progress from one decade to the next. Then again, what would someone who considered themselves musically literate, born in 1917, have said comparing "Johnny B. Goode" and "Dance to the Music"?
― Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 9 February 2022 23:46 (two years ago) link
I mean, part of the inability to hear particular differences is down to inexperience. I'm pretty sure anything my grandfather heard, when he never listened to anything past the big band era, all sounded the same
― mh, Wednesday, 9 February 2022 23:54 (two years ago) link
I just watched “Pretty in Pink” and “The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers” and can’t figure out which one was made earlier.
― Western® with Bacon Flavor, Thursday, 10 February 2022 00:00 (two years ago) link
The hobbits in "Pretty in Pink" were real, the Hobbits in "Two Towers" were CGI.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 10 February 2022 00:31 (two years ago) link
Yeah but can you tell the difference between Breakfast Club and Meet the Feebles?
― Chappies banging dustbin lids together (President Keyes), Thursday, 10 February 2022 01:05 (two years ago) link
The former is puppets, the latter is CGI.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 10 February 2022 01:06 (two years ago) link
obviously I take great issue w/them calling him the sharpest music writer of his generation when I've been on ilm for long enough to know much betterhis shtick definitely affected writing styles overall, no doubt
― Forgive the thread spam, but I wanted to note I'm (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, 10 February 2022 01:50 (two years ago) link
xpost - mh what about Future vs Lil Baby vs Jazzy Sensation by Bambaataa (81) vs How I Could Just Kill a Man by Cypress Hill (91), that's way more different
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 10 February 2022 01:55 (two years ago) link
or, the best selling rap album of 2012 was Drake, the best selling rap album of last year was...Drake
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 10 February 2022 02:05 (two years ago) link
i wonder where the growing easier access to music since the late 90s factors into all of this. i don't really have any solid thoughts on it either way, but surely that's been a big contributing factor to the uber-nostalgia overload that we're currently living through. i know for those of us who grew up relying on magazines, music videos, and word of mouth, pre-napster/internet feels very much like "the beforetimes" — and, for better or for worse, will inevitably be romanticized. not trying to sound like a "well back in my day" story, but i'd liken it to my grandparents preferring to listen to the radio instead of watching television.
(not that i preferred "the beforetime", i.e. not being able to hear new music as easily as now, but the feeling is the same. it was just "a different time" and some folks probably were young and carefree then, so look back on it fondly? idk.)
just trying to make sense of this obsession with such definitively stated time periods. i don't understand.
never read much ck, but he seems a doofy blowhard (takes one to know one, i suppose).
― get shrunk by this funk. (Austin), Thursday, 10 February 2022 03:20 (two years ago) link
yeah I think streaming has a lot to do with it
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 10 February 2022 04:29 (two years ago) link
right the whole career of "professional pop culture/movie/music dork" like Kevin Smith, James Murphy, or Quentin Tarantino didn't seem to really exist before the 90's, and now that basically everything's available 24/7 in your pocket its kind of like half of what all media is now
― frogbs, Thursday, 10 February 2022 04:43 (two years ago) link
There used to be 10 music journalists and now there are 10 million.
― billstevejim, Thursday, 10 February 2022 06:21 (two years ago) link
frogbs is right but I don’t think it has to do with “everything is in your pocket” but instead “criticism is monetized by having constant streams of content about lots of subjects, and Young Sheldon is not going to recap itself”
― Forgive the thread spam, but I wanted to note I'm (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, 10 February 2022 07:15 (two years ago) link
There used to be 10 music journalists and now there are 10 million.Only ten are making any money from it tho.
― Loud guitars shit all over "Bette Davis Eyes" (NYCNative), Friday, 11 February 2022 01:30 (two years ago) link
FYI, they had a feature with Klosterman and on 90s nostalgia on CBS Saturday Morning last week.
― earlnash, Friday, 11 February 2022 01:35 (two years ago) link
Only ten are making any money from it tho.
Has anyone written about alt-weeklies being forced to discontinue sex work ads and the effect on being able to make money as a music critic/journalist?
― papal hotwife (milo z), Friday, 11 February 2022 01:38 (two years ago) link
Rightly or wrongly, I decided early on that Klosterman's interests weren't mine, and then there seemed to be a certain amount of celebrity attached to him, so I didn't read any of his books. The Nineties is the first one I've read.
Thought it was good--raced through it. At lot of that, I'm sure, has to do with my own positive feelings about the decade. Definitely the last time I was completely plugged into new music, from the start of the decade to the finish. Films and politics too. So I was interested in most everything he covered. (The only chapter I was completely uninterested in was the one on clear sodas--Zima, etc.--and the Biosphere...but there was other stuff in that chapter that did interest me.) Liked the two political chapters ('92 election + Clinton in general), and his memory of all that more or less aligns with my own. (Although he didn't mention some of the early forgotten stories I associate with Clinton: Zoe Baird, Jocelyn Elders, Cristophe.) He's good on movies and sports--liked that he highlighted Michael Jordan's season playing baseball. I wasn't really looking for deep analysis...there's analysis, but it didn't feel like work. If I wrote a book on the '90s myself, it'd probably be a lot like this one. I'd just say "I" a lot more.
― clemenza, Sunday, 6 March 2022 16:19 (two years ago) link
Somebody like Jonathan Lethem once said something like you can enjoy reading Klosterman even if you have zero overlap of taste, with the added bonus of not spending one cent on new music, although I haven't tested this theory in a while.
― Gary Gets His Tonsure Out (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 6 March 2022 16:49 (two years ago) link
I'd say music accounts for a quarter of the book, maybe less. I don't think I found anything egregiously at odds with my own memories of the decade...he says there was "an overwhelming consensus" that "Achy Breaky Heart" was terrible; I think that's overstated (really overstated in view of the fact that he doesn't mention critics, although that's the implied consensus). Some critics liked it, and at least one loved it.
― clemenza, Sunday, 6 March 2022 16:59 (two years ago) link