Acceptability/Legitimacy of Supernatural Beliefs

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How does one measure the worth of a belief?

I dunno Dan but have you noticed that the spirituality of this country is on the decline lately?

― hstencil, Wednesday, 27 August 2003 20:34 (9 years ago) Permalink

i blame miss cleo, personally, for the decline in spirituality.

― Emilymv (Emilymv), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 20:37 (9 years ago) Permalink

I blame mad cow disease.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 20:39 (9 years ago) Permalink

the wind has many colours, son.

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 20:39 (9 years ago) Permalink

And some of them are bangin.

― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 20:39 (9 years ago) Permalink

Fuck you lady! Baby gotta eat.

― Miss Cleo (Oops), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 20:40 (9 years ago) Permalink

Should astrology be viewed as less legitimate than religion?

if looked at pragmatically this would have to be taken on an individual by individual basis. (tho in the past i have argued that belief in god is NOT pragmatic since it necessarily means believing in an absolute Truth which would make any pragmatic decision always secondary to whatever that absolute Truth is. but we could go in circles with that line of argument.)

― ryan (ryan), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 20:43 (9 years ago) Permalink

and if you're not willing to apply rational criteria to belief then i think dan above is correct when he implies that this discussion is impossible.

― ryan (ryan), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 20:45 (9 years ago) Permalink

I think we can all agree that in general astrology is viewed as less legitimate.
So...why?

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 20:47 (9 years ago) Permalink

Vic Iodine to thread! (though if memory serves his was a slighty different kind of astrology?)

― Leee (Leee), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 20:58 (9 years ago) Permalink

I think we can all agree that in general astrology is viewed as less legitimate.

astrology has never really produced any measurable results as far as i know. religion has neatly side stepped that question. (results are either highly subjective or in the afterlife).

if horoscopes had a high rate of being correct then i think people would take them VERY seriously.

― ryan (ryan), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 21:29 (9 years ago) Permalink

astrology has never really produced any measurable results as far as i know.

By 'sidestepping', neither has religion.

if biblical prophecies had a high rate of being correct then i would take it seriously.

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 22:18 (9 years ago) Permalink

I think everything is supernatural, but people refuse to see it that way. Just what is the nonthinking process that causes things to grow? Like a potato. Put a seed in the ground and it does the rest itself; with no brain or nervous system of any kind, it regulates its absorption of minerals and water and generates new cells. Pretty fuckin' supernatural to me. The process can be delineated, but it can't really be explained.

― Scaredy Cat, Wednesday, 27 August 2003 22:52 (9 years ago) Permalink

yeah, where did i hear that things are called supernatural not by our ability to understand them, but by how common it is. for instance, how television works is pretty supernatural. pictures fly through the air. computers are magical. not many people can understand how that stuff works, but we take it on *faith* that someone, somewhere can explain it. many commonplace things are incredible and pretty much unexplainable when you get down to it. i think things are deemed supernatural when not every single person can pick up on it. thus perhaps ann coulter is supernatural.

― lolita corpus (lolitacorpus), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 23:04 (9 years ago) Permalink

but ryan they DO have a high rate of being correct!! because they're crafted by specialists in human nature and are often just vague enough to provoke a "whoa!" as many times as not. religion isn't that different!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 23:10 (9 years ago) Permalink

I think as long as you're asking "how," things can be figured out, but when you start asking "why," you're fucked.

For instance, I see things because light enters my eye, is focused somewhere in my head (upside-down, so I hear) and my brain "sees" the picture. I'm not even sure if people have figured out the FULL realization of how senses really sense anything, but presuming that's fully explained (doubtful, since still very little is known about the brain), why do organs interpret stimuli as sight, sound, smell, etc.? Because it's "necessary" for the survival of the organism? Does this imply some sort of intelligence or not? Sure sounds like it.

― Scaredy Cat, Wednesday, 27 August 2003 23:11 (9 years ago) Permalink

i think it just implies natural selection!

even were the universe beyond our understanding (which it most surely is) that doesn't mean God exists.

again im not sure any discussion of the supernatural can really occur because i dont think we can have meaningful conversation outside of rational parameters. (presumably kantian parameters?)

in any case, David Hume to thread.

― ryan (ryan), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 23:30 (9 years ago) Permalink

i believe in magic cz i can make marks on a sheet of paper and show them to you and stuff happens in yr head

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 23:33 (9 years ago) Permalink

God is a loaded word, so let's not use it. What is natural selection? Is it randomness or intelligence? I guess the chaos theory is analogous to bazillions of puzzle pieces finding their "fit" over an enormous amount of time. That suits me. But, it doesn't explain things to me like...

Where does thought come from?

What is instinct?

Why do "lightning calculators" come up with mathematical answers, if they have no idea how to work the concepts out on paper?

Why does the answer to a difficult problem sometimes suddenly "pop" into our head "out of thin air" only after we've completely given up on the idea?

Shit like that. I mean, I guess I could go on and on forever, but to me, I can believe in chaos theory, evolution and anything else that's considered "reality" at this point in time, and I still see an underlying intelligence in the cosmos. (Is it still called a "cosmos" or is that just a New Age term now?)

To me, it's all "supernatural" by popular conception, but it is completely NATURAL in reality.

― Scaredy Cat, Wednesday, 27 August 2003 23:41 (9 years ago) Permalink

Why is there something rather than nothing?

I still don't see an argument other than: "there is stuff I can't explain - therefore there is an underlying intelligence to the universe." Why jump to conclusions?

― ryan (ryan), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 23:58 (9 years ago) Permalink

I guess what I'm saying is the term "supernatural" seems to imply a force that is unknown that "controls" things (but not necessarily LITERALLY-- perhaps "unseen actions" or "unseen forces" or even "spooky action at a distance"...?). And, at this point, I'd say that's what we've got, because we don't know the answer. We haven't put a label on it, whatever it is, so it can't be considered "natural," exactly. There is something beyond nature as we've come to know it thus far that works its "magic" all around us. What we consider "of this world" are things we've put labels on. Anything else, we are still open-ended about and we refuse to draw conclusions. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's as it should be. What people object to, I believe, are falsely drawn conclusions.

But. there is obviously "intelligence" in people and animals... but, do we go so far as to say there is "intelligence" in microcosms? I guess not.

What is intelligence, exactly? It's sort of funny that one definition of intelligence is "understanding," when we don't really understand what it is... Understanding, comprehension, the capacity to acquire and apply knowledge, the faculty of thought and reason. It's what drives people crazy, isn't it? Did philosophy ever explain it? I don't know, but it's pretty wacky stuff.

― Scaredy Cat, Wednesday, 27 August 2003 23:59 (9 years ago) Permalink

It's all about cause and effect, no? And what exactly is it that makes things affect one another, why is there cause and effect? Dunno. That's just how it is in this universe.

So can anyone tell me why established religions should be treated with more respect than astrology?

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 28 August 2003 02:21 (9 years ago) Permalink

better stories and robes.

― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 28 August 2003 02:23 (9 years ago) Permalink

Can anyone tell me things about stuff and what alcohol does, for instance?

Because I am A Poet
The gerbil of Mars was a generalissimo of
jelly bean jars
And he had two bits of sense
and two seconds of the dense
FOG.

In an angry Iron Dog, where I navigated from...
Lyons Road to Gehenna is an arbitrary
assignment
To the Nova Scotia Lox of planetary alignment
Where gerbils run free
on the sands of Gallilee
Is the place where things are done
on the basis of consignment.

This folly of jackyls and nymphs of the sea,
who sings songs of adornment
to the necklacess on Necklace Eve,
They participate in the mother of all
tournaments.

Anything happens and shit is possible,
So here is it wot built a foundry wot built its
foundation on such formulations, for starters,
unstoppable:

There's a button of censors
(which I don't have)
'tis a Band-Aid
for the flummoxed shooter of nonsense
(which is all salve)
I am a shoo-bee,
A doo-bee,
A rompity-stompity floo-bee.

I am a Rompity-Stompity Romper Room.

― Natola (Scaredy Cat), Thursday, 28 August 2003 02:33 (9 years ago) Permalink

So can anyone tell me why established religions should be treated with more respect than astrology?

I'm not sure it can be done, but i think the strongest argument would be to say that there are ratiuonal arguments for believing in god. i cant think of any for astrology.

― ryan (ryan), Thursday, 28 August 2003 16:53 (9 years ago) Permalink

I could come up with just as rational arguments for astrology. (Okay, maybe not ME, but someone could)

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 28 August 2003 19:03 (9 years ago) Permalink

PHEAR my PHOTONS beaming at YR BRANE.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Thursday, 28 August 2003 19:25 (9 years ago) Permalink

Legitmacy: Well, that's why is is called a *belief* and it isn't subject to anyone else's approval. You make your decision to believe in atheism, Zoroaster, The Mall, God, Confucious, Maya, Hunaphu, whatever and you live your life by its moral code. What's the problem?

Acceptability: People are mostly intolerant, and atheists are just as intolerant as rabid fundamentalists.

― Orbit (Orbit), Friday, 29 August 2003 15:12 (9 years ago) Permalink

atheists CAN be just as intolerant.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 29 August 2003 23:13 (9 years ago) Permalink

What about those people who just refuse to take a position?!?! Those intolerable bastards won't side with me no matter WHAT position I take.

― Scaredy Cat, Friday, 29 August 2003 23:16 (9 years ago) Permalink

"So can anyone tell me why established religions should be treated with more respect than astrology?"

Some established religions have traits similar to astrology.

― A Nairn (moretap), Saturday, 30 August 2003 00:16 (9 years ago) Permalink

8 years pass...

In an attempt to get along better with my mother (ARIES), I have taken up astrology. She has an ipad now and I have to help her find good web pages.

As a Libra, though, the reward is in the artwork and writing on some of these pages.

I enjoy tarot readings myself, but as entertainment.

― โตเกียวเหมียวเหมียว aka Bulgarian Tourist Chamber (Mount Cleaners), Monday, 21 May 2012 16:07 (1 year ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

I'm learning about my moon sign today:

You may be familiar with your 'Sun Sign', but what is a 'Moon Sign'? The Moon is said to rule your personality, while the Sun rules your individuality, while the Ascendant Sun dictates our outer appearance and mannerisms (learn more about the Ascendant by clicking on its icon in the horoscope main menu).

You may be surprised to learn that you may illustrate more of your Moon Sign qualities than your Sun Sign (it should be noted though that the vast majority of the populous manifest their Sun Signs). By reading the description of your Moon Sign you will be able to judge how much the Moon affects your personality. The descriptions are quite general, but may ring true nonetheless.

― โตเกียวเหมียวเหมียว aka Bulgarian Tourist Chamber (Mount Cleaners), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 20:46 (11 months ago) Permalink

To answer the original question, the order of acceptability in the Western world seems to be something like:

Luck > deities that are intangible and don't affect people's everyday affairs > destiny/fate/horoscopes > ghosts, angels and other intangible spirits that may momentarily affect people's everyday affairs, but generally stay out of the way > paranormal powers in humans > deities in physical form > demons and other monsters in physical form.

― Tuomas, Thursday, 7 June 2012 12:06 (11 months ago) Permalink

Oh yeah, add "reincarnation" after destiny/fate.

― Tuomas, Thursday, 7 June 2012 12:07 (11 months ago) Permalink

> safe investments > talking cars

― lag∞n, Thursday, 7 June 2012 12:09 (11 months ago) Permalink

> animals wearing people clothes

― Julie Derpy (Phil D.), Thursday, 7 June 2012 12:19 (11 months ago) Permalink

> the legitimacy of sock puppets

― nerds being macho (remy bean), Thursday, 7 June 2012 12:29 (11 months ago) Permalink

you can take away my everything but don't take away my supernatural beliefs

― chris paul george hill (dayo), Thursday, 7 June 2012 12:49 (11 months ago) Permalink

My wife has a great many supernatural beliefs, but over a period of many years I have persuaded her to be self-skeptical enough that she does not use these beliefs as the basis for practical decision-making, and when she meets others who share her beliefs and set themselves up as teachers or gurus, she is very sensitive to whether these people have ulterior motives, such as money-making or power-seeking.

Under these conditions, I am very content not to directly challenge her beliefs in spirits and mysterious powers. If you treat them merely as interesting hypotheses that might have some explanatory power, but it is not clear whether other explanantions might not be stronger, then these become much more like intellectual exercises than belief systems.

― Aimless, Thursday, 7 June 2012 16:40 (11 months ago) Permalink

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