marketing of masculinity

how many people actually have these man caves? outside of beer commercials and sitcoms and mtv cribz.

Also related to expounding on point #2: I loathe the fact that advertisers have successfully made this kind of personal space in the home be about CONSUMPTION more than contemplation, or anything else the space could be used for. Maybe that's snobbish/elitist of me.

iatee, I have no idea, but people on home shows who're shopping for a new place or w/e seem to talk about them A LOT.

I agree that it's a concept of sorts and surely does exist in reality for some people - but to say that it's replaced the den? I dunno, I'd bet there are 5x as many 'dens' as 'man caves' in america...bet based entirely off personal experience.

New idea: Is the "man cave" a replacement idea for the garage or workshop, for "modern" men who don't have garages or wood-working areas or tools and hobbies of that particular "manly" sort? Like, a lot of people can come to the rescue with a cordless drill or some basic plumbing stuff like getting things out of the drain trap etc, in an emergency, but most of us "urban"(?) younger people don't spend the number of hours working on machinery or carpentry projects, etc, that I remember people doing when I was little. Or yardwork, because we don't have yards per se or we hire landscapers or something.

But, on the other hand, does this not take at least part of the recreation and socializing out of bars and bring it into the home? Is that bad?

I loathe the fact that advertisers have successfully made this kind of personal space in the home be about CONSUMPTION more than contemplation, or anything else the space could be used for. Maybe that's snobbish/elitist of me.

Holy shit, me too. At some point, the eating/drinking/buying must stop, right? READ A BOOK!

we call the room in the cellar with the couch, tv, and dvd player the "man cave" but we're both men and it really is like a cave so

oops i meant "man den"

usually said with a terrible british accent? ymmv

Was the den just the middle-class-ification of the "library"? Which was also a men's sanctum in houses that could afford one, iirc.

New idea: Is the "man cave" a replacement idea for the garage or workshop, for "modern" men who don't have garages or wood-working areas or tools and hobbies of that particular "manly" sort? Like, a lot of people can come to the rescue with a cordless drill or some basic plumbing stuff like getting things out of the drain trap etc, in an emergency, but most of us "urban"(?) younger people don't spend the number of hours working on machinery or carpentry projects, etc, that I remember people doing when I was little. Or yardwork, because we don't have yards per se or we hire landscapers or something.

this sounds right tbh.

I mean, when I think of the concept, it's less to do with masculinity and more with privacy (treehouse!). "hobby cave"

like when some lady tames this ~stallion~, I imagine I'll want some sort of space to do nerdy projecting ( bikes or w/e) by myself. just cuz I like to do that stuff alone, not because Ill expect my wife to be baking pies all the time

tho that would be dope, I love pie

yeah I mean people like having their own private space (not just men...) - I do think it comes down to the fact that most peoples' hobbies = watching tv

man cave pioneer:

http://a0.vox.com/6a00c225240649549d00d4141e3c30685e-500pi

yeah but calling it a "man cave" just conjures up bad smells imo.

what about "penis room"?
or "room for penises"

How about "room for athletic assholes"?

How about a room for shutin gamers?

That doesn't really fit in with the kind of party me and Matt P are having, sorry.

Frankly if there were a room that my family members/partner were reluctant to enter and where I was allowed to spend hours of recreation time basically unaccounted for except for occasional hobbyist projects that resulted, I'd spend every waking and non-working moment there.

Which would basically defeat the purpose of having a family/partner but you know, what can you do.

room with stuff in it for me to do

And I would really like it to be as boring as possible to everyone but me.

Frankly if there were a room that my family members/partner were reluctant to enter and where I was allowed to spend hours of recreation time basically unaccounted for except for occasional hobbyist projects that resulted, I'd spend every waking and non-working moment there.

Which would basically defeat the purpose of having a family/partner but you know, what can you do.

^^ This. Laurel, I feel like we agree on this topic whole-heartedly.

you can do it even if you have a partner, don't need to designate a room either

I need a bigger apartment. With a den.

:(

In Britain, this space is called 'the shed' and it's a place for men who like kamikaze home repair to isolate themselves from their houses. It is accepted by the type of man who celebrates Top Gear viewing as a 'blokey' pursuit.

Further to what Plaxico was saying about the doc above, this is just another take on projecting 'realness' or basically it's Paris is Burning in a lumberjack shirt. I also give a lot of traction to the idea that the gay fashion designer's first-collection 'muse' for menswear is the guy they were bullied by, or the guy they fancied at a time when they had less acceptance/control over how they, themselves, were seen.

found the trailer for that doc. btw. iirc the guy who says the line i was talking about is pretty much the only interesting guy in it, and not just bc of his awesome moustache.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oTB_NkZjLM

I'm not sure how comfortable I am w/ describing gay displays of masculinity in a kind of PIB realness context either bc it kind of implicitly suggests that straight displays of "masculinity" are in some way more real or authentic than gay.

Your comfort is not the issue, as the voguers were the ones who invented 'realness' categories and predicated it on the whole phenomenon of 'passing', but I would argue that all 'masculine' displays have that aspect.

you are being p. hasty w/ prescribing an element of a very specific subultural phenomenon existing in a very specific context as somehow paradigmatic of the vastly larger cultural spectrum of male gender performativity. But beyond that,I mean, a large part of the performance of "realness" in PIB is explained by the ballers as an expression of their desire to overcome marginality, that line about the appearance of success being an equivalent for success itself (framed against the backdrop of racism, homo/transphobia and the aspirational climate of american popular culture in the 70s, 80s in partic.)

PIB?

paris is burning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydA7-qCv570

dorian corey is such a hero

I loathe the fact that advertisers have successfully made this kind of personal space in the home be about CONSUMPTION more than contemplation, or anything else the space could be used for. Maybe that's snobbish/elitist of me.

Well yeah, me too - and maybe this is a bit off-topic - but one thing I've been noticing among my friends who are also urbanites, is a desire to return to the carpentry/construction/productive projects that we associate from the middle America of our youth. It's like everyone I know who lives somewhere with anything resembling a backyard wants to have a garden and grow produce and raise chickens.

that looks fantastic. thread has me thinking about all sorts of things but i don't how how to put it into a coherent statement. like, this stuff really affects me sometimes. x-post

it is fucking fantastic. would totally recommend.

PIB is life-changingly good!

maybe it's a desire to have a direct hand in SOMETHING that's a part of your life. that's what you tell yourself before you start. then you start and it just plain sucks, but you keep going cuz you started it. we just planted a garden, cut down a bunch of weed trees, grew a lawn and landscaped some flower beds. and it looks nice! it's a great thing to do but it doesn't really mean anything beyond itself imo x-post

yeah, Matt, I kinda feel like it's a reaction to the alienation of consumerism and work that involves sitting in front of a computer all day. It's like they want to produce something in a way that requires physical labor.

Manliest Cities in America

After all, COMBOS® has been the 'Official Cheese-Filled Snack of NASCAR' since 2002."

is the study in decline? seems like the ultimate male room to me.

Well, yeah. Who else should be the arbiter of a city's manliness than those who have been designated the OFFICIAL purveyor of cheese-filled snacks to NASCAR?

Paris is Burning is also very 'fake it 'til you make it' and yeah, it's probably one of the best films about anything, ever. However, I think most people are putting on a performance of themselves in public, whether they realize or not.

The idea sarahel mentions is not exactly a new thing. Last week I was sent off to interview that irrepressible gender warrior J3anette W1nt3rs0n, who owns an organic grocery in east London and totally endorses the idea that people who spend all day in a headspace *do* need physical labour, or at last the grasp and release of working hard on something with yr hands, because otherwise we are all just battery hens who happen to wear jeans.

New Display Name. Awesome. And it has upped my masculinity 10x.

did NASCAR have a different official cheese-filled snack before 2002?

one thing I've been noticing among my friends who are also urbanites, is a desire to return to the carpentry/construction/productive projects that we associate from the middle America of our youth.

This "phenomenon" makes my mother laugh; it was the same thing that got her and her entire generation through the 70s. I mentioned that my hipster (former ILXor!) friend was really into spinning wool and my mom was like, Yeah, no biggie, I did that.

Also to sarahel: there've been news stories (Oh hello NYT Style section!) for at least several years about aged hipsters giving up city/corporate life and moving upstate to raise goats organically or whatever. Wasn't news then, isn't new now.

so sorry I don't live in NYC or London - but it does seem like this isn't something that was a "trend" 8-10 years ago.

Hipster knitting was part of the same movement (actually it's the earliest example I can think of, but maybe I just didn't know any yuppies-turned-farmers then), and there were books about guerilla fiber arts and "stitch'n'bitch" groups 8-10 years ago. And I always thought etsy.com came out of that movement too: people wanted a way to showcase/sell the stuff they were making.

Actually, I kind of support that. Whatever forms we need communal folk crafts to take to pass to the next generation, go for it. Stitch-n-bitch / urban farming / carpentry / whatever.

I think this comes from reading all those Foxfire books when I was working a boring summer job at a historical village.