People Who Live In Suburbs: Classy, Icky, or Dudes?

yeah tbh my parents kinda have an "us vs them" immigrant mentality, they're not exactly anchor points of the community

Also my patience with that kind of thing is short b/c I just ushered my parents around NYC for two days and like I know it's loud here but racist remarks about kids/people in public places are simply unacceptable. No, it's not fair that you have to listen to their noise but otoh you're the one who went out in public and you don't have the right to decide how everyone else should act, so get the hell over it and find your happy place.

yes there was

really? i don't remember signing anything. pretty sure my parents and my grandparents didn't either

Except that suburbs are unsustainable, Granny

not saying they aren't, so not sure how this refutes anything I have actually said.

I thought tacking the Phillies thing onto a primeval desire would give it away as being tongue in cheek

http://www.jstor.org/pss/273848?cookieSet=1

not on an academic connection dawg

neither am i! first page is enough

My post above might sound ironic coming from me b/c I can get incredibly angry at people who take up more than their aural/physical/psychic space in public but mostly with people who seem like they're daring you to take offense. When kids are happy and loud and not hurting anyone, you can cover your ears or move or w/e because science proves that no one can tolerate the screeching of 13-yr-old girls except other 13-y-o girls, but don't you DARE link it to their skin color.

i don't remember signing anything. pretty sure my parents and my grandparents didn't either

Surely, you're being disingenuous. The bonds needed to put in services such as roads or sewers or schools, the changing of lot sizes, the house sale contracts w/precluded the buyer from re-selling to minorities, etc... The growth of suburbia from the 20's (minus the hiatus of the Great Depression and WWII) onward may not have been super coherent nationally, but it was certainly a socio-economic movement.

You're being way more disingenuous there. No one thought "oh hey let's structure these towns so they're totally unsustainable and inefficient and use up natural resources at an alarming rate, but it's okay since I don't want to live by noisy immigrant 13 yr old girls".

Maybe the first part wasn't that specific, but the second part totes was.

sounds accurate enough to me

by "no one thought" you meant "nobody said outloud" - right...

So my family which contained noisy 13 yr old immigrant girls, wanted to move away from noisy 13 yr old immigrant girls??

"oh hey let's structure these towns so they're totally unsustainable and inefficient

As I said above, the assumptions that were consciously or unconsciously made about energy and water and land resources were based on assumptions that have since proved to be erroneous or callous wrt the environment.

can't imagine anyone who would have a better reason

xp

you keep wanting to reduce system-wide incentives to individual motivation, for some reason. nobody is a bad person for wanting a decent place to live.

Oh but hey, looks like you guys have found your scapegoat for all that's wrong with America, congrats.

xp Michael, again you're arguing against something I've never said, so don't know what to say to you.

Hey, once moving to the burbs became cast in faux-finish stone as "achieving the American dream," of course people bought the whole thing without considering how it came to be. The point is how the first part happened.

Minorities may have been tolerated in small numbers if they fit the middle class norm that prevailed.

Surely you can't argue that the great African-American migration from the South in the first half of the 20th Century had no impact on the subsequent rise of the suburb in America?

This thread is amazing. You could have threads about abortion or race or religion and people would get less butthurt!

"since proved"

Key word there, "since". I think GD is just arguing that not every single suburban citizen ever in the history of the world went in to it looking to rape the environment and destroy our planet.

no shit?

I don't know what you want me to say, Michael. The suburbs weren't built on racism and most people there are racist? Will that work?

suburbs WERE built, i meant

jvc: And no one has said that they did, and in fact many posts have said that everyone knows that they DIDN'T, but there's a willful lack of comprehension happening around here. Maybe it's something in the water.

Well consider how many twists and turns this thread has taken, kind of easy to understand how wires are getting crossed here.

I don't hate suburbs 'cause of their origins but I am very leery of the American tendency to see them as the default or natural 'American way' to live just as I am leery of 5% of the global population feeling entitled to use 25% of the Earth's resources.

GD, sorry if I'm coming across as a dick here but as a very white kid who lived amongst other white people who were often racist in various shitty suburbs or bits of sprawl (and also very nice suburbs filled with too much blithe self-regard), it's a touchy subject to me.

This may come as a shock but apparently there's a whole lot of racism in cities, too.

Yes, but a hell of a lot less than there was 90 years ago.

Also, people drive SUVs in the city for sure.

I mean, look at Chicago! Of all the cities in the U.S. I've visited, I've never seen a city more sharply divided among lines of color and class.

Yes, but a hell of a lot less than there was 90 years ago.

So you're saying the suburbs have gotten more racist over the past century, but the cities less so? Bullshit.

What do they PUT in that water, anyway?? Whatever it is, someone oughtta protest it. Even fluoride isn't this effective.

If anything those two levels have stayed the same, its the rural racism that seems to have ratcheted up.

I drink well-water. I don't even want to know.

Same with the suburbs. fwiw my grandpa was Italian, and got hassled in the city for it, and then hassled for it in the 'burbs when he moved. Neither he nor my grandma would tolerate even the hint of racism. They passed that on to my mom and all her siblings. As I've said, the suburb I grew up in was very diverse and integrated. So just as it's a touchy subject for you, it is for me to get these blanket "surburbs=racist" judgements thrown about.

I've been purposely trying to keep race out of this discussion, and not because it didn't play a huge role in the birth of the suburbs and not because it doesn't play a huge role today, but because I think it's possible to explain what's wrong with the suburban lifestyle in 2010 (we make it too cheap) - and what can fix it (we make it more expensive) - without even touching on racism.

in 2010 solving the race problem doesn't necessarily solve our land-use problems - one could theoretically live in a blissful racism-free diverse suburb. likewise solving our land-use problems won't necessarily solve our race problems - "there's lots of racism in cities too."

Is Laurel turning into Glenn Beck or some shit? "Everyone who disagrees with me is drinking the tainted water".

"Let's have a spirited discussion about the suburbs, as long as we all agree"

So you're saying the suburbs have gotten more racist over the past century, but the cities less so? Bullshit.

Yes. Yes I am except suburbs a century ago were mostly only for the wealthy and weren't as widespread as they are now and I haven't denied the persistence of racism in any realm of American life, including cities.

I just cannot agree with that, at all Michael. Sorry.

One key functional point that I don't think has come up here yet is the impact on returning WWII soldiers on inner ring suburban growth, which was a very non-institutionalized factor. Also kind of singlehandedly established the reign of the duplex in these areas.

Yes, but a hell of a lot less than there was 90 years ago.

Waht

jon, it's more like the theme of this thread is now people willfully denying historical facts about the cultivation of the suburban dream/expectations, and currently scientific data about energy use etc, because the facts don't fit their personal anecdotal experiences, like everyone wants THEIR family history to be the exception.

It's possible that the bulk of ILXors and potentially their families ARE an exception to a number of historical trends but that doesn't negate the existence of the trends. And repeating yourself from post to post without offering any evidence for the facts not being factual except that you don't like them, is not an argument.

*current scientific data

Fingers ran away from me, there.

because the facts don't fit their personal anecdotal experiences, like everyone wants THEIR family history to be the exception.

You mean like everyone wants THEIR family history to be the rule?

MW, in most cities the existing racism a century ago in most of america was pointed at germans, irish, and italians, who were then replaced by eastern europeans. tbh, actual non-white minorities were considered kind of beneath racism, if you understand what im saying.

so i dont really know that you can measure the path of changes in racism the way some people might want to.

xpost: laurel i dont honestly think ive seen much in the way of scientific data on this thread from either side (a couple of things from goole and that chart about energy consumption are about it), most of it is pretty much personal opinion-based tirades. hi internet!

that was lots of xposts actually but eh

As I've said, the suburb I grew up in was very diverse and integrated. So just as it's a touchy subject for you, it is for me to get these blanket "surburbs=racist" judgements thrown about.

Hey, I realize that there are many diverse neighborhoods all around the US but my experience of racism in the ones where I've experienced it was as legitimate as yours of a less racist one. My grandparents and my parents were/are all loony progressives but my extended family contained people who are probably tea partiers, now, the kind fo people who would have willfully mispronounced your grandpa's name and thought him too exotic or whatever.

That said, and w/a bow to iatee, my problem w/suburbs and sprawl has always been (in a very parochially Californian way) about its devasating effect on the environment in California. As a kid, my dad and I would go over the Tioga Pass and camp on the east side of the Sierras at a time when Mono lake was slated to die a slow and disregarded death so some (expletive deleted) could have a green grass lawn in a Southern California desert.

No, Laurel, it's more that these facts are not in dispute, and people keeping bringing them up to try to disprove something that isn't even being argued against.